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Russ
21-08-2003, 19:35
This (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-12740461,00.html) makes very interesting reading.

Although we don't know all the facts in this case, would it be fair to say that had the situation been a 33 year old man having sex with a 14 year girl, would the defence have the nerve to say "The girl was the instigator"?

kronas
21-08-2003, 19:39
thats a bit sickening for me but whats this about her suffering from depression surely she knew what she was doing likewise the boy :shrug:

timewarrior2001
21-08-2003, 19:40
I can see this getting messy.
The boy may have been the instigator but as we keep hearing when its a male abusing a young female, Under the age of 16 you have no legal right to say yes, your consent counts for nothing. Its still statutory rape.

Russ
21-08-2003, 19:41
Actually it's statutory rape when the victim is under 13.

danielf
21-08-2003, 19:42
This is just ridiculous. A court would never except a fourteen year old girl being the instigator. 'She is young, she doesn't know any better, the responsibility lies with the adult to walk away etc'. Apparently 14 year old boys do know better?

Russ
21-08-2003, 19:45
Had the 14 year old lied about his age and she had reasonable ground to think he was over 16 then it might be easier to see it from her point of view but......it doesn't look like it happened that way.

timewarrior2001
21-08-2003, 19:47
you know I'm beginning to think that because he's male he will be the envy of all his mates. Possibly the first to have sex. It still doesnt make any difference whether the abused was male or female the courts should not allow for one second the defence to say this youngster instigated the crime.
If it is found that he did instigate it, then its going to cause lots of problems when the CPS try and get the men who have sex with 14 year old girls, they will be able to claim she instigated it and this case was the "test" case.

Maggy
21-08-2003, 20:53
It's disgusting for any adult of any sex to abuse a child.
There is no defence.Adults are supposed to protect the young and vunerable,not take advantage.Depression is NO excuse at all:afire:

Incog.

Ramrod
21-08-2003, 21:06
Speaking as a man, I would have been very happy to have found myself having sex at the age of 14. Especially with an experienced partner. I wouldn't look back on the memory and think something like 'that bitch abused me'. I would probably treasure the memory.:spin:

Mark15
21-08-2003, 21:16
Ok in a way I agree with you RamRod but if you say that to people openly you will be flamed but it annoys me that when ever you hear about rape its always the man abuses a woman it can be other way about sometimes but its never documented

ic14
21-08-2003, 21:19
Originally posted by Mark15
Ok in a way I agree with you RamRod but if you say that to people openly you will be flamed but it annoys me that when ever you hear about rape its always the man abuses a woman it can be other way about sometimes but its never documented

Its true, I think that would be because men would be frightend to admit that they were abused by a woman.

homealone
21-08-2003, 21:24
Originally posted by Ramrod
Speaking as a man, I would have been very happy to have found myself having sex at the age of 14. Especially with an experienced partner. I wouldn't look back on the memory and think something like 'that bitch abused me'. I would probably treasure the memory.:spin:

There is probably some truth in that, Ramrod, but not for all 14 year old boys, it's been a while since I was 14, but I would have run a mile:spin: - 15 was different ;) - but that was me.:shrug:

Point is, the law is there to protect children & shouldn't be applied any differently, whether it be man on girl or woman on boy.

Gaz

Pompey1
21-08-2003, 21:27
Will she go on the paedophile register? I suppose she will

aliferste
21-08-2003, 21:56
Originally posted by Ramrod
Speaking as a man, I would have been very happy to have found myself having sex at the age of 14. Especially with an experienced partner. I wouldn't look back on the memory and think something like 'that bitch abused me'. I would probably treasure the memory.:spin:

She was a bit of a minger though :devsmoke:

Jules
21-08-2003, 22:31
He is just a kid why didn't she walk away??

Lord Nikon
21-08-2003, 22:32
Originally posted by aliferste
She was a bit of a minger though :devsmoke:

A BIT? :spin: :eek: :sick:


If I remember rightly, it wasn't until the late 19th - early 20th century that laws were brought into play preventing the marriage of 12 year olds?

I think I saw mention of it in a thread somewhere, I'll see if I can find it...

In the meantime though, even if he was 14, you would think he had better taste.....

Mark15
21-08-2003, 23:09
yea but you know what they say about fat women...actually no i shouldnt say it as I might get banned ;) forgot about the number of mods here. Its ok its safe. :D

Ramrod
21-08-2003, 23:43
Originally posted by Mark15
yea but you know what they say about fat women... err.... if memory serves....slap the fat and.....*mumble mumble*:D
errr...can I say that?

Ramrod
21-08-2003, 23:45
Originally posted by ic14
Its true, I think that would be because men would be frightend to admit that they were abused by a woman. Hmmm.......In my case it would only be abuse if the woman was challenged in the attractiveness department and then I would have run a mile anyway. Can I say that?:confused:

cjll3
22-08-2003, 00:03
Originally posted by Russ D
This (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-12740461,00.html) makes very interesting reading.

Although we don't know all the facts in this case, would it be fair to say that had the situation been a 33 year old man having sex with a 14 year girl, would the defence have the nerve to say "The girl was the instigator"?

They do it all the time where the man responsible has no choice but to acknowledge the he had sex with the child.

Since it's impossible for a woman to force a man to have sex with her, it's a reasonable assumption that the boy was a willing participent, if not the instigator.

As for telling his father, well fool! He'll not be getting his leg over again any time soon. :cool:

Russ
22-08-2003, 00:05
Originally posted by cjll3
Since it's impossible for a woman to force a man to have sex with her

Not quite true.

As a female you'll not know the difficulty of trying to get rid of an unwanted........how can I put this......"reaction" :erm:

cjll3
22-08-2003, 00:08
Female :mad: :mad: :mad: !!!!!

You looked at the pic and had a reaction did you Russ? :D

Russ
22-08-2003, 00:08
no

cjll3
22-08-2003, 00:14
Originally posted by Russ D
no

Doubt if anyone else would either, therefore there was probably a lot more going on at the time to cause arousal then just sitting together.

ic14
22-08-2003, 00:17
Originally posted by Ramrod
Hmmm.......In my case it would only be abuse if the woman was challenged in the attractiveness department and then I would have run a mile anyway. Can I say that?:confused:

Well russ let it slip through, so i guess your OK!:)

Russ
22-08-2003, 00:24
Originally posted by cjll3
Doubt if anyone else would either, therefore there was probably a lot more going on at the time to cause arousal then just sitting together.

We just don't know. But she was the adult and should have had more appropriate control over the matter.

Well russ let it slip through, so i guess your OK

I only tend to respond to complaints :)

cjll3
22-08-2003, 00:43
Originally posted by Russ D
We just don't know.

That's why we have to reserve judgement ;)

Originally posted by Russ D
But she was the adult and should have had more appropriate control over the matter.


True, but should the child who is without a doubt a willing participent be totally absorbed from blame? If so then how can they possibly be expected to learn social responisbility?

Russ
22-08-2003, 00:44
Originally posted by cjll3
True, but should the child who is without a doubt a willing participent be totally absorbed from blame? If so then how can they possibly be expected to learn social responisbility?

It's called effective parenting.

cjll3
22-08-2003, 00:56
Originally posted by Russ D
It's called effective parenting.

And the parents have been effective in this case?

Russ
22-08-2003, 00:58
Nope.

danielf
22-08-2003, 01:14
Originally posted by cjll3

Since it's impossible for a woman to force a man to have sex with her, it's a reasonable assumption that the boy was a willing participent, if not the instigator.


Physically maybe, but this is a 14 year old child, pitted against an adult woman. As we all know, physical force may not have come in to it. There's other forms of duress. Sure, the child may have been the instigator, but the woman should have walked away...

kronas
22-08-2003, 01:49
hold on didnt the article say they did it twice ?

so they both knew what they were doing and im guessing the boy certainly knew what he was doing so therefor the women should be charged with having sex with an underage boy

and the boy should be punished too

Russ
22-08-2003, 01:52
Do you think a girl should be punished too if the situation was reversed?

kronas
22-08-2003, 01:55
Originally posted by Russ D
Do you think a girl should be punished too if the situation was reversed?

i believe in equal fair punishment and IMO if both parties are aware of there actions then yes i would want the same thing to happen if it was a reversed situation

Russ
22-08-2003, 01:57
But it's not illegal for a 'minor' to have sex with and adult, only the other way around.

kronas
22-08-2003, 02:00
Originally posted by Russ D
But it's not illegal for a 'minor' to have sex with and adult, only the other way around.

i dont know the ins and outs of the legal system but IMO its wrong to have sex with a minor and stern punishment should be given to the adult and youngster involved

DonFluffy
22-08-2003, 02:03
If it had been the other way round... 33yr old male with 14yr old girl..somehow i think all your reactions would differ.

I say...throw her in jail....no bail...and assume her guilty!

Thats what happens with men, so lets be equal on this issue.

I don't honestly think she is totally to blame though.. come on.. offered sex on a plate so young? maybe you first time?

kronas
22-08-2003, 02:06
Originally posted by Verbal
If it had been the other way round... 33yr old male with 14yr old girl..somehow i think all your reactions would differ.


nope id still be as strict its a disgusting thing

Originally posted by Verbal

I say...throw her in jail....no bail...and assume her guilty!


yes i agree


Originally posted by Verbal

I don't honestly think she is totally to blame though.. come on.. offered sex on a plate so young? maybe you first time?

true but its wrong you dont go round having sex with minors its just morally wrong and an adult should know better

Russ
22-08-2003, 02:10
Originally posted by kronas
true but its wrong you dont go round having sex with minors its just morally wrong and an adult should know better

But what if the 14 year old had lied about his/her age - should the adult be punished then, if they believed the child to be old enough?

kronas
22-08-2003, 02:12
Originally posted by Russ D
But what if the 14 year old had lied about his/her age - should the adult be punished then, if they believed the child to be old enough?

thats a grey area the child should be punished if that is found to be the case

Russ
22-08-2003, 02:13
But what about the adult?

kronas
22-08-2003, 02:17
Originally posted by Russ D
But what about the adult?

as i said a grey area im unsure about that but if it WAS the minor lieing about his/her age then i dont believe any action should be taken against the adult BUT it must be proven without a doubt that the minor was the one that had lied about his/her age

Maggy
22-08-2003, 02:28
Originally posted by Russ D
But what if the 14 year old had lied about his/her age - should the adult be punished then, if they believed the child to be old enough?

I suggest to all those of you who can't tell a 14 year old from a 16 year old that you start asking to see birth certificates and make sure you visit the intended date's home and meet his/her parents/family.

Incog. The older I get the more 20 year olds seem like 12 year olds to me.;)

kronas
22-08-2003, 02:35
Originally posted by Incognitas
I suggest to all those of you who can't tell a 14 year old from a 16 year old that you start asking to see birth certificates


well some people look older then they really are........


Originally posted by Incognitas

and make sure you visit the intended date's home and meet his/her parents/family.


there are a few problems with that first of all some relationships are not known to the parents as they would go 'off' on one :disturbd:

oh and secondly i dont think it would be wise to ask
the parents :erm:

the persons age and then ask for a birth certificate they will wonder whats going on and be all :confused:

Lord Nikon
22-08-2003, 07:15
Just a question... how many people here went into nightclubs under age by pretending to be older than they are?
How many girls do people see who dress older than they are and pass for old enough to club? (over 18 club)

As the picture of the 14 year old won't be shown for legal reasons, and there is no mention of how they met, it is possible this was one of those cases.

Oops, it DOES say how they met, my mistake, however this post remains valid, albeit not in this particular case.

I remember a night in a club as one of many during my college years when someone's 18th birthday was announced, champagne was given, and a bouncer commented that the person concerned had been a regular in the club for 4 years.


People do lie about their ages. I am not saying the woman was not to blame at all, I am however saying that occasionally the lines can be blurred by people's actions.

Russ
22-08-2003, 09:24
Coggy that's hardly fair. As Lord Nik says, some of these kids dress to look older and manage it pull it off quite successfully. I have a 16 year old neice who for the last year or so has been dressing 'older' and it certainly is effective, to the point that it causes great concern for her parents.

cjll3
22-08-2003, 09:46
Originally posted by Russ D
Do you think a girl should be punished too if the situation was reversed?

A girl is highly unlikely to want casual sex at that age. So a direct comparisum is very unfair.

zoombini
22-08-2003, 09:47
I have a 13 year old son.
He looks 13.
His classmate who is also 13 is 6 foot and looks 16.

The difference between 14 & 16 is so small that it can be almost impossible to tell.

Not an excuse for her though.

Lord Nikon
22-08-2003, 09:48
With respect to this, I also think the Law should be changed.
As it stands an adult who has sex with an underage person is charged and the child isn't named for legal reasons.

If however they met in a club, as a result of the child dressing and passing through club security as someone over 18, and therefore over the age of consent then they should also name the child and lay some of the blame for the incident on them. After all, had they not deceived the management of the club, the staff of the club and with it, the patrons of the club, then the situation would never have arisen.

If someone takes these steps to deceive so many people into thinking they are of legal age for alcohol, then they also should take responsibility for their actions.

Currently when you meet someone in a club you have to attempt to be relatively certain that they are old enough, and if the door staff couldn't tell while sober, then how are you supposed to tell when you have been drinking? Yet as the law stands you are responsible even in this circumstance, which, in my opinion is ludicrous.

Not that I am saying that alcohol is a viable excuse for underage sex, merely that responsibility has to lie on the shoulders of the person who initially set out to deceive. In this case it would also be the person we normally see as a victim, at least in the current eyes of a blinkered legal system.

timewarrior2001
22-08-2003, 10:17
Thats a tangled issue, I am pretty sure the law states that whilst under the influence of alcohol you actually are not responsible for your actions. (mainly referring to minor indescretions but this is always overlooked as the fact you allowed yourself to get into such a state of intoxication in the first place. But even then you are under the influence :spin: ) . I am fairly certain this has been used in drink driving cases.
How ever as you rightly pointed out in this scenario the adult would be hounded by the police and placed on the sex offenders register. The youngster would be told off.

Lord Nikon
22-08-2003, 10:41
My point is more one of INTENT.

When someone underage goes into a club, they set out with the intent to deceive people into thinking they are older than they are.

A person in the club, has reason to believe that the people in there are over the age of consent, given that on the door of the club it says over 18s only, or 21, or 25 in some cases.

That person has no reason therefore to assume that the person they are talking to is anything other than a minimum of 2 years over the age of consent.

Should they then discover that the person they slept with is younger than the age of consent they are then in a position where they can be charged with anything from indecent assault, assault through to statutory rape. This is wrong, they had no intent to seduce a minor, they had valid reason to assume they were of legal age, and met them in an environment where they should have been legally old enough in the first place.

The underage party in this case is the one who is to blame.

They set out with the intent of deceiving people into thinking they were over 18 (and, given that they were in the club they had achieved it)

It should therefore fall on the underage person to be named and shamed as they were the only person who was less than honest in the situation, and the person of legal age in this case becomes the victim, yet in this circumstance the law is reversed, the victim becomes the criminal, and the criminal becomes the victim....

Russ
22-08-2003, 10:51
Originally posted by cjll3
A girl is highly unlikely to want casual sex at that age. So a direct comparisum is very unfair.

What a load of sexist claptrap! A girls in her mid teens is likely to find the attentions of an older man to be very attractive.

Maggy
22-08-2003, 11:15
Originally posted by Russ D
Coggy that's hardly fair. As Lord Nik says, some of these kids dress to look older and manage it pull it off quite successfully. I have a 16 year old neice who for the last year or so has been dressing 'older' and it certainly is effective, to the point that it causes great concern for her parents.

However she IS 16 and considered capable of consent by the law.

My suggestion is that if you can't be certain be very careful.After all does one go straight to bed with anyone in this day of AIDS?Surely you try to get to know a person before having sex with them?Not just go off with ANYONE after meeting them in a nightclub?
If the answer to any of the above is no then you are truly heading for some trouble.The onus is on the individual to beware.After all saying after wards that you didn't know is no defence in the eyes of the law and the defence of drunkeness won't protect you either.
However this complaint about not knowing how old a girl is is a very common one.I would have thought that by now men would have heard enough scare stories in the media to be concerned enough to check beyond a doubt.

This woman was supposedly a middle age mother with children of her own.She DID know how old that child was.She was a b*tch.

Incog.

:mad:

Lord Nikon
22-08-2003, 11:17
Incognitas, in this particular case I agree, the woman was to blame, but if you read my post (51) then there are circumstances where the lines are not so clear cut.

zoombini
22-08-2003, 11:21
Not wanting to be rude about the woman in this case but..

Being a fat minger she might be a bit less likely to be too careful...

The lad would have though his boat had come in & it was xmas, the 2nd time he would have thought he was onto such a good thing having been there before & not knowing any different.

Maybe he got some stick off of his mates when he told them & they knew who she was.

"?? sh@66ed a fat minger!" type stick.. :D

Perhaps he then got shamed into telling his dad.
"dad, whats wrong with sh@66ing a fat minger?"..

Lord Nikon
22-08-2003, 11:23
She Does look like a bulldog licking p***s off a nettle though lol


even at 14 I am sure I would have had better taste in women than he had lol

zoombini
22-08-2003, 11:33
You have to wonder if perhaps he was her childs classmate & if they are mates any more...

& if he used and mates...

Russ
22-08-2003, 12:31
Moving away from whether or not you feel she's attractive, it still stands that society does not seem to view this crime as serious as the reversed situation.

Can she expect to have a brick through her window, or graffiti on her walls?

Lord Nikon
22-08-2003, 12:33
Its those old dual standards again Russ...


People are more willing to lay the blame on the man than the woman, no matter what.

cjll3
22-08-2003, 13:24
Originally posted by Russ D
What a load of sexist claptrap! A girls in her mid teens is likely to find the attentions of an older man to be very attractive.

Older men are more like to know how to treat a girl, so yes they are more attractive. However girls are less likely to want casual sex then boys, and are more interested in the relationship and being loved.

You try suggesting to Kink, Debsy or Incog that you only talk to them because you want to screw them and see what kind of reaction you get .... but stand well back! ;)

Moving away from whether or not you feel she's attractive, it still stands that society does not seem to view this crime as serious as the reversed situation.

This is a totally different situation to say a care worker forcing himself on a child. Yes she's wrong for not rejecting his attentions, but he is not entirely without blame.

Rabbit
22-08-2003, 14:21
I think that when you are young then you find the attentions of the opposite sex very nice and welcoming indeed. I remember when I was at school and there was a dinner lady that paid special interest in me. I loved her with all my heart and if it hadn't been that she moved house we may have become lovers. I was 14 at the time and had never had any ladies in my life as my mum dies when I was only little and so I have been brought up by my Dad and my Grandad. There are no living females in our family that live in this country so I have only ever had male attention and that is not exactly expressive towards you when it comes to hugs and things is it? I mean when your Dad is leaving you for the first time at University he just shakes your hand and says 'See you son' and that's it. Very formal and business like. So I have to wonder about the upbringing and the attention that this young lad has had in his life from females. This could be the key to it all.

Russ
22-08-2003, 15:46
Originally posted by cjll3
This is a totally different situation to say a care worker forcing himself on a child. Yes she's wrong for not rejecting his attentions, but he is not entirely without blame.


Yep Lord Nik you were right, double standards.... :rolleyes:

kink
23-08-2003, 20:03
Originally posted by cjll3
[Snippity snip].......
You try suggesting to Kink, Debsy or Incog that you only talk to them because you want to screw them and see what kind of reaction you get .... but stand well back! ;).....

[Snippity snipped]




Since i have been mentioned... thought i'd contribute, although some of the posts in this thread had me reeling and i opted to stay out of it....

I'd much prefer a man to be honest.... then i can either say yes or no. It saves us both a lot of time and the man in question, saves his breath too ;) I'd only find the lying in order to get a 'screw' as you put it, offensive and patronising and it would ensure a negative response... or if i found out too late.... i'd have to track him down and find a way to repay his abuse of trust :p

Can't speak for the other women mentioned, but that's my repsonse... i know it's :notopic: but honesty works for me.

Ramrod
23-08-2003, 20:11
Originally posted by kink
Since i have been mentioned... thought i'd contribute, although some of the posts in this thread had me reeling and i opted to stay out of it....

I'd much prefer a man to be honest.... then i can either say yes or no. It saves us both a lot of time and the man in question, saves his breath too ;) I'd only find the lying in order to get a 'screw' as you put it, offensive and patronising and it would ensure a negative response... or if i found out too late.... i'd have to track him down and find a way to repay his abuse of trust :p

but Kink, men only approach women that they fancy. After that comes the intellectual attraction. The initial attraction has a lot to do with sex.
I believe it's often the opposit case with women.....at least according to my wife.

kink
23-08-2003, 20:37
Originally posted by Ramrod
but Kink, men only approach women that they fancy. After that comes the intellectual attraction. The initial attraction has a lot to do with sex.
I believe it's often the opposit case with women.....at least according to my wife.

Yes, Ramrod ;) What i'm saying is that if a man only wants to sleep with me.. never to be seen again after that moment .... i'd like to know in advance so that i can agree to it or not. I was only replying to the situation where a screw was to be the only outcome.. it wasn't a part of the getting to know you process. I was referring to being lied to by someone just to have sex.... no more, no less..... never to be heard of again.... a telephone number that doesn't exist given at the end of the night.... that sort of thing :naughty:
I'm not naive, if anything i'm jaded. And women are not so different to men... well not any more. In looking for a possible partner then of course personality and intelligence is part of the attraction.... but i'm 36, single... and sometimes sexual physical attraction is all that's needed :shrug:
Having said that.... the physical attraction is affected..... for me.... by the personality of the man, even on first meeting. If he has an inane laugh which resembles a hyena... then i think the idea of an early night is not on :D Maybe that's where the difference it... maybe you're saying that men, generally of course, would not be so bothered by that for a quickie.
Start another thread... and we can discuss it :D

:erm: May have been too honest there.... lol but just so you know, that was NOT a personal advert ;)

Ramrod
23-08-2003, 21:09
Originally posted by kink
[B]Yes, Ramrod ;) What i'm saying is that if a man only wants to sleep with me.. never to be seen again after that moment .... i'd like to know in advance so that i can agree to it or not. I was only replying to the situation where a screw was to be the only outcome.. it wasn't a part of the getting to know you process. I was referring to being lied to by someone just to have sex.... no more, no less..... never to be heard of again.... a telephone number that doesn't exist given at the end of the night.... that sort of thing :naughty: I agree, thats not on.

Having said that.... the physical attraction is affected..... for me.... by the personality of the man, even on first meeting. If he has an inane laugh which resembles a hyena... then i think the idea of an early night is not on Pretty much the same for men (unless their incredibly desperate):D