NTL amongst supporters of Illegal P2P?

[PC_Arcade]

"You may be surprised to know that current advertisers on the most popular peer to peer service eDonkey who now steadfastly support copyright theft with real cash money include Nat West, Vodafone, O2, First Direct, NTL, and Renault," he said in an open letter to the British Phonographic Industry last month.

From here : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4000331.stm

:lol:

[Jon M]

:rolleyes:

Just because a bit of software can be used illegitamately doesn't mean that anyone using it or advertising through it, supports that illegal usage.

Some people drive their cars like morons, but that doesn't mean Marlboro shouldn't advertise on F1 cars because they're "encouraging irreponsible drivers".

[Graham F]

From here : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4000331.stm

:lol:

not quite... :rolleyes:

EDIT i think maybe someone should change the title of this thread beofre ntl legal eagles come here!! maybe ntl advertise on illegal p2p site, would be more accuarte!!

Similarly telecommunications firm NTL blames its media buying agency which places adverts with third party networks featuring thousands of sites.

Since the matter was brought to its attention last month, the agency has strict instructions to make sure ads do not appear on such sites, a spokesman told the BBC News website

[bopdude]

not quite... :rolleyes:

EDIT i think maybe someone should change the title of this thread beofre ntl legal eagles come here!! maybe ntl advertise on illegal p2p site, would be more accuarte!!
Would it ???? as S1lv3r has said, its not the software or the site thats illegal but the swapping of certain file types .... some, not a lot of people, granted will be using the p2p sites legally so why not advertise :shrug:

[PC_Arcade]

Hang on a minute the article read : (companies) "who now steadfastly support copyright theft with real cash money include Nat West, Vodafone, O2, First Direct, NTL, and Renault,""

How the hell can NTL legal eagles come here and threaten anyone, all I did was to quote the BBC, who in turn had quoted an open letter to the BPI from Paul Myers, chief executive of Wippit.

It wasn't me that said NTL supported copyright theft it was the BPI.

I'm well aware that Emule can be used for legitamate purposes (although I've never met anyone that does).

Lest we forget, NTL's track record in this area isn't great, they advertised Spiderman as being available for download from the internet before it was available for purchase or rental anywhere in the world, as a means to attract new customers

[Graham F]

Hang on a minute the article read :

How the hell can NTL legal eagles come here and threaten anyone, all I did was to quote the BBC, who in turn had quoted the BPI.

It wasn't me that said NTL supported copyright theft it was the BPI.

I'm well aware that Emule can be used for legitamate purposes (although I've never met anyone that does).

Lest we forget, NTL's track record in this area isn't great, they advertised Spiderman as being available for download from the internet before it was available for purchase or rental anywhere in the world, as a means to attract new customers

no they quoted Paul Myers, chief executive of Wippit

have you actually read the article?!? :angel:

If the statement is unfounded they can yes!

[PC_Arcade]

sorry in a letter to the BPI oops

I'll amend my post.

[Neil]

I've amended the title with a '?' mark at the end. :)

[PC_Arcade]

Could you not put allegedly, that would be much funnier :)

[themelon]

The record Industry and/or BPI should remove their heads from their own arse.

P2P isnt necessarily illegal for starters.

Secondly the reason people use P2P for illegal purposes is because CDs are a RIP OFF, £3.99 for a single or £9.99 for a album on average.

Less than 40% of this goes to the artist, about 60% goes to fat record executives who do nothing noteable, except maybe forcefeed us with manufactured pap idols.

The record Industry needs to sort its life out an tackle the ROOT of the problem before patching up the result of their greed over the years.

[Graham F]

The record Industry or BPI should remove their heads from thier own arse.

P2P isnt necessarily illegal for starters.

Secondly the reason people use P2P for illegal purposes is because CDs are a RIP OFF, £3.99 for a single or £9.99 for a album on average.

Less than 40% of this goes to the artist, about 60% goes to fat record executives who do nothing noteable.

The record Industry needs to sort its life out an tackle the ROOT of the problem before patching up the result of there greed over the years.

taking something without paying is stealing and that is wrong no matter what your thoughts on over pricing etc are!!

[Chris W]

Secondly the reason people use P2P for illegal purposes is because CDs are a RIP OFF, £3.99 for a single or £9.99 for a album on average.


defendant: "this rolex was a bit expensive, so i stole it instead!"
judge: "are you admitting committing theft?"
defendant: "oh but it doesn't matter because £1000 for a watch is a rip off"
judge: "of course! of you go then... case closed"

hmm... don't see it working somehow!

[ian@huth]

The record Industry or BPI should remove their heads from their own arse.

P2P isnt necessarily illegal for starters.

Secondly the reason people use P2P for illegal purposes is because CDs are a RIP OFF, £3.99 for a single or £9.99 for a album on average.

Less than 40% of this goes to the artist, about 60% goes to fat record executives who do nothing noteable, except maybe forcefeed us with manufactured pap idols.

The record Industry needs to sort its life out an tackle the ROOT of the problem before patching up the result of there greed over the years.

Please make sure of your facts before posting statistics such as you have. What about production costs, advertising costs, transport costs, wholesaler and retailer margins, etc? THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THEFT.

[themelon]

taking something without paying is stealing and that is wrong no matter what your thoughts on over pricing etc are!!

I dont actually use P2P for whatever illegal purposes but can sympathise with those who do.

As for stealing.........Fat executives are taking something (£10000 0 salaries) without working for it the artists do and only get £4 for every CD, so what goes around comes around.

They need to take a good hard look at the industry as a whole....and tackle the cause of problems.

I would actually say mp3 downloads actually boost the music industry more than damage it, I actually know people who have downloaded a few mp3s, enjoyed them and then gone out and brought the album, as at the end of the day you cant beat the real thing (CD Insert etc). It allows for a try before you buy, as opposed to buying a crap CD and being stuck with it.

Maybe they should look at reducing their prices, making it more competative, I have no doubt the majority would rather the real thing but they will not pay a premium to keep various fat executives in the latest armarni atire.

The same as everything really...........poorly managed making a CD say £5.99 would make sales go through the roof, piracy would become unsustainable and die but while they continue to rip people off piracy will always remain and be sucessful.

[themelon]

Please make sure of your facts before posting statistics such as you have. What about production costs, advertising costs, transport costs, wholesaler and retailer margins, etc? THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THEFT.


These no doubt play a part (significantly smaller than the artists share and not 60%), but again why are there record executives on £100000 +

Too damn right there is no excuse for theft.........but they are doing it, maybe they should practice what they preach and take a wage cut, actually recieving what they 'earn' post would probably be sub £20000 like most normal people.

[Graham F]

I dont actually use P2P for whatever illegal purposes but can sympathise with those who do.

As for stealing.........Fat executives are taking something (£10000 0 salaries) without working for it the artists do and only get £4 for every CD, so what goes around comes around.

They need to take a good hard look at the industry as a whole....and tackle the cause of problems.

I would actually say mp3 downloads actually boost the music industry more than damage it, I actually know people who have downloaded a few mp3s, enjoyed them and then gone out and brought the album, as at the end of the day you cant beat the real thing (CD Insert etc). It allows for a try before you buy, as opposed to buying a crap CD and being stuck with it.

Maybe they should look at reducing their prices, making it more competative, I have no doubt the majority would rather the real thing but they will not pay a premium to keep various fat executives in the latest armarni atire.

The same as everything really...........poorly managed making a CD say £5.99 would make sales go through the roof, piracy would become unsustainable and die but while they continue to rip people off piracy will always remain and be sucessful.

so would you sympathise with someone that goes into lets say virgin or hmv and steals a cd because they can't afford it and they don't have a computer?

[ian@huth]

I dont actually use P2P for whatever illegal purposes but can sympathise with those who do.

As for stealing.........Fat executives are taking something (£10000 0 salaries) without working for it the artists do and only get £4 for every CD, so what goes around comes around.

They need to take a good hard look at the industry as a whole....and tackle the cause of problems.

I would actually say mp3 downloads actually boost the music industry more than damage it, I actually know people who have downloaded a few mp3s, enjoyed them and then gone out and brought the album, as at the end of the day you cant beat the real thing (CD Insert etc). It allows for a try before you buy, as opposed to buying a crap CD and being stuck with it.

Maybe they should look at reducing their prices, making it more competative, I have no doubt the majority would rather the real thing but they will not pay a premium to keep various fat executives in the latest armarni atire.

The same as everything really...........poorly managed making a CD say £5.99 would make sales go through the roof, piracy would become unsustainable and die but while they continue to rip people off piracy will always remain and be sucessful.

If CDs only cost £1 each you would still get some people saying it was a rip off and continue to download copies of them.

You quite often see people claiming they have thousands of mp3s on their computer, there was a thread on here not long back asking how to organise them on their system. Are these all legal and did they go out and buy copies as a result of downloading them. I bet they have never listened to most of them.

You don't appear to comprehend how many people rely on sales of music for their living. There are far more than the artists themselves and your fat executives. Do you know how much it can cost to rent a retail unit in a prime shopping location, staff it and pay the overheads. A large percentage of the cost is retail margin and anyone selling through the high street and shopping malls needs that margin to survive. Do you want to see the end of high street retail music?

[themelon]

defendant: "this rolex was a bit expensive, so i stole it instead!"
judge: "are you admitting committing theft?"
defendant: "oh but it doesn't matter because £1000 for a watch is a rip off"
judge: "of course! of you go then... case closed"

hmm... don't see it working somehow!

Actually isnt that what happens currently?

Certainally in this country.

"this rolex was a bit expensive, so i stole it instead!"
judge: "are you admitting committing theft?"
defendant: "oh but it doesn't matter because £1000 for a watch is a rip off, so i robbed it out this geezas house, and he tried to kick me out, I wanna sue him £200000 0 init cause he scratched mi arm and it bled"
judge: "of course! off you go then £200000 0... you might get to do some community service cleaning the grafiti you created if you want, then you can show off your £40000 Saxo to your Chav mates, case closed"
defendant: "cool i can get mi a new body kit for mi saxo insteada that cardboard one, an now I can get a proppa bling Rolex, ya"

[ian@huth]

These no doubt play a part (significantly smaller than the artists share and not 60%), but again why are there record executives on £100000 +

Too damn right there is no excuse for theft.........but they are doing it, maybe they should practice what they preach and take a wage cut, actually recieving what they 'earn' post would probably be sub £20000 like most normal
people.

What world are you living in? :D

[themelon]

so would you sympathise with someone that goes into lets say virgin or hmv and steals a cd because they can't afford it and they don't have a computer?


People do it...........and society rightly or wrongly sympathises with it in terms of what punishment they recieve.

Througout society I can fully sympathise with why people steal stuff, because a lot of stuff is way too expensive.

Obviously its up to the individual to decide whether it is right or wrong to take whatever action they decide to take. At the end of the day rightly or wrongly society doesnt seem to punish theft, you steal from a CD store you will probably get a slap on the wrist on any number of occassions from the police.

I can sympathise with why people do it, It doesnt make it right, I might not like those who do it, and I definately wouldnt do it myself.

[Graham F]

People do it...........and society rightly or wrongly sympathises with it in terms of what punishment they recieve.

Througout society I can fully sympathise with why people steal stuff, because a lot of stuff is way too expensive.

Obviously its up to the individual to decide whether it is right or wrong to take whatever action they decide to take. At the end of the day rightly or wrongly society doesnt seem to punish theft, you steal from a CD store you will probably get a slap on the wrist on any number of occassions from the police.

I can sympathise with why people do it, It doesnt make it right, I might not like those who do it, and I definately wouldnt do it myself.

:Yikes:

Its simple if you can't afford something you don't get it, why the hell should i work my butt off to get my pay each week to get and do nice things, when you are saying that you don't have a problem with people stealing? so where would you draw the line? If somone burguled your house would you have symphaty with them if they had no money? No you wouldn't so why is stelaing from a shop deemed ok by you?

[PC_Arcade]

Downloading music isn't theft (much as the BPI, RIAA etc would have you believe it is), it's copyright infringement.

Stealing a CD from HMV though is Theft as you are taking a physical item.

[Graham F]

Downloading music isn't theft (much as the BPI, RIAA etc would have you believe it is), it's copyright infringement.

Stealing a CD from HMV though is Theft as you are taking a physical item.

illegal is illegal, but thank you for clarifying that point :)

[themelon]

If CDs only cost £1 each you would still get some people saying it was a rip off and continue to download copies of them.

You quite often see people claiming they have thousands of mp3s on their computer, there was a thread on here not long back asking how to organise them on their system. Are these all legal and did they go out and buy copies as a result of downloading them. I bet they have never listened to most of them.

You don't appear to comprehend how many people rely on sales of music for their living. There are far more than the artists themselves and your fat executives. Do you know how much it can cost to rent a retail unit in a prime shopping location, staff it and pay the overheads. A large percentage of the cost is retail margin and anyone selling through the high street and shopping malls needs that margin to survive. Do you want to see the end of high street retail music?

You will always get people breaking the law.

Downloading mp3s is like speeding, Its a law that a large percentage of the population break and something that people dont necessarily look down on.

I would always prefer to have a real cd for quality, I have an expensive sound system and recorded Cds dont cut it. Of course some people will never buy a CD but that isnt my problem, it theirs.

Exactly how much money are they going to waste trying to enforce the unenforcable............and ending piracy which has been happening since god knows when, and will continue to happen long into the future. What is the point at throwing money into to the wind, when they could reduce the prices and make their product more atractive to the average consumer.

Renting a retail unit.........can cost a fortune but its generally companies such as HMV or Virgin (never ever buy CDs from here as they are at least £3 more than Tesco or Asda) that rent these spaces, a large proportion of advertising is done by HMV, Virgin, Asda, Tesco, Woolworths, how many adverts for albums do you actually see that arent advertising a shop to purchase it, not many personally.

Personally im not that fussed about high street music retailers, if they rip us off, they will go bust, they will need to examine themselves and make themselves more competative to survive. At least Tesco and Asda are pushing CD Prices down to £8.99 which proves prices can be lower.

All a lot of companies need to do is fire a few pen pushing executives and they will save millions a year.

[themelon]

:Yikes:

Its simple if you can't afford something you don't get it, why the hell should i work my butt off to get my pay each week to get and do nice things, when you are saying that you don't have a problem with people stealing? so where would you draw the line? If somone burguled your house would you have symphaty with them if they had no money? No you wouldn't so why is stelaing from a shop deemed ok by you?


It doesnt make it right.

But sureley you can undertand why people steal? I can Sympathise with why people do it, its easy, its not punished very harshly.

Maybe if laws were stricter in this country it would remove the temptation for people to steal but thats a different matter! If you were not as fortunate as you probably are would you not be tempted to find a easy way out.

If somebody burguled my house I would like to be there to beat the hell out of them, but unfortuantely that illegal (probably more so that theft) too!!

I used to 'unfortunately' work in a shop........whilst there you would see the same shoplifters being caught time and time again (generally part of the local tramp population), its simple for them to do, if they get away with it, they get a free bottle, if not they get to spend the day at a police station.

I dont think mp3 downloads are necessarily because people are poor, they are often for trial or because of the changing mediums in the world.

Some people use a media centre for everything and downloading music is the most conveinient method, until recently there havent been any/many legal sites that allow this, now napster and I-Tunes do.

The record industry needs to wake up, its living in the past, it will end up killing itself if it doesnt watch it.

[ian@huth]

themelon, what you have to consider is that most of the population of this country do not have internet access. Whilst outlets such as Woolworths and the supermarkets sell CDs they do not stock a very wide range and if they don't stock it then tough. What the high street specialist retailer does is carry a much wider range with facilities to listen before you buy and the ability to order products not in stock.

It is very expensive to rent retail space. Some ten years ago we were paying over £250,00 0 a year to rent a small unit in the Lakeside shopping centre, with service charges, rates, etc on top of this. If you took a PC game retailing for £49.99 including VAT it cost us £25 ex vat to purchase this. It may seem a big profit margin but it was needed to make the business viable.

[Hans Gruber]

You quite often see people claiming they have thousands of mp3s on their computer, there was a thread on here not long back asking how to organise them on their system. Are these all legal and did they go out and buy copies as a result of downloading them. I bet they have never listened to most of them.
Are you saying anyone with a big CD collection is also a thief? I know a lot of people with BIG CD collections. And yes, a lot of them have converted them to MP3s to ease of listening AND to listen to on iPods (and other MP3 players). You do seem to have a habit of accusing people of illegal activities with no evidence.

[ian@huth]

Are you saying anyone with a big CD collection is also a thief? I know a lot of people with BIG CD collections. And yes, a lot of them have converted them to MP3s to ease of listening AND to listen to on iPods (and other MP3 players). You do seem to have a habit of accusing people of illegal activities with no evidence.

If you read what you have quoted from me you will notice that I have not accused anyone of illegal activities but simply asked the question of whether they are legal. I know the answer and you know the answer. ;)

[themelon]

themelon, what you have to consider is that most of the population of this country do not have internet access. Whilst outlets such as Woolworths and the supermarkets sell CDs they do not stock a very wide range and if they don't stock it then tough. What the high street specialist retailer does is carry a much wider range with facilities to listen before you buy and the ability to order products not in stock.

It is very expensive to rent retail space. Some ten years ago we were paying over £250,00 0 a year to rent a small unit in the Lakeside shopping centre, with service charges, rates, etc on top of this. If you took a PC game retailing for £49.99 including VAT it cost us £25 ex vat to purchase this. It may seem a big profit margin but it was needed to make the business viable.


If people want to pay a premium to shop there then fine, but I just want what I want for the cheapest price.

Maybe the record retailers need to question why shopping space is such a rip off too, maybe move the specialist stores out of 'Prime' shopping locations into their own units in seperate locations. (what exactly defines a pime location for shopping now, why is an out of town shopping complex with 20 shops more dificult to reach by car or public transport than one with 1 shop)

Too many businesses in this country are afraid to break the mould and all follow along as sheep offering substandard services at a premium prices.

Umm I wonder how many tiers of pointless management each of these stores has, when I used to work for a Supermarket Chain (which to its credit has recently restructured greatly) the amount of 'pointless managers' was untrue, an area manager, area director, a regional manager, regional director, divisional manager, divisional director each also had a PA and company car.........I imagine most large retail chains have similar structures of needless high paid management positions.

This Supermarket has infact streamlined all these postions into one............the regional director, so now one person works a bit harder and actually earns their £150000 salary. The company is saving probably the best part of £2 million a year, which it can pass on as better pricing to the customers.

[Ignition]

Just out of interest wasn't this thread about somethign completely different from the legalities or otherwise of downloading things on P2P. We all know the vast majority of things floating around P2P networks are illegal, isn't that all we need?

If ntl consciously advertise on ED2k website I think it's pretty clear why is it not? Same reason all advertising is done, to get more customers on board.

Personally in light of the newly coming capped tiers I find it mildly hilarious, especially considering ISPs general dislike for P2P traffic in large quantities, then again I'm an engineer, not a salesbot ;)

[themelon]

Its a bit strange really.........

p2p is not necessarily illegal

Pubs are not necessarily illegal

ntl can advertise on p2p as it alone is not necessarily breaking the law, the same as an ntl advert might for wahtever reason appear in a pub (leaftlet, tv, brochure, whatever)

ntl cant stop illegal activity on p2p in the same way they can not prevent the dodgy bloke in the pub selling knocked off car stereos and Lacoste aftershave.

[Stuart]

Downloading music isn't theft (much as the BPI, RIAA etc would have you believe it is), it's copyright infringement.

Stealing a CD from HMV though is Theft as you are taking a physical item.Semantics..

If you download music and don't buy the CD, you are still denying the various people involved in the creation and manufacture of the album their money much the same as you would be if you stole the CD.

Regarding NTL supporting Illegal P2P, they probably aren't. I suspect they bought some advertising space from whoever provides advertising for eDonkey (or whatever network), and NTL have no idea of where their adverts are going.


I dont actually use P2P for whatever illegal purposes but can sympathise with those who do.

As for stealing.........Fat executives are taking something (£10000 0 salaries) without working for it the artists do and only get £4 for every CD, so what goes around comes around.
As Ianauth says, there is a lot more expense to creating and distributing CDs than what goes to the executives. There are the studio fees (including production crew), advertising, manufacture, video making, session musicians, transport, warehousing, transport, wholesalers, retailers. All of these companies and people need to be paid.

They need to take a good hard look at the industry as a whole....and tackle the cause of problems.
True, and as I have stated earlier, I believe that piracy is not even the main problem for the record industry (although they are focusing on it). I believe that the main problem for the record industry is that most companies are following a similar formula for new bands: Audition for 5 members (any combination of guys and girls), commission a song for them. Create a video with a lot of computer graphics. Record an album with them, then finally send them out on tour.

Now, I have nothing against manufactured bands, as long as they are talented, and their music is good (for instance, one of my favourite bands, All Saints was created when the record company merged two groups - One with Melanie Blatt and Shaznay Lewis, and the other with the Appleton sisters), but there are too many now, and they all sound/look/act very similar to one another. I think it's causing people to get bored with music.

The other problem (mainly with the singles market) is that people are not going to buy one or two singles at £3.99 each when they can get both of those, and 38 others for £15.99 on a compilation.


I would actually say mp3 downloads actually boost the music industry more than damage it, I actually know people who have downloaded a few mp3s, enjoyed them and then gone out and brought the album, as at the end of the day you cant beat the real thing (CD Insert etc). It allows for a try before you buy, as opposed to buying a crap CD and being stuck with it.

Maybe they should look at reducing their prices, making it more competative, I have no doubt the majority would rather the real thing but they will not pay a premium to keep various fat executives in the latest armarni atire.
I think that mp3 downloads do help the companies. I used to use AudioGalaxy, and actually discovered several groups on there, whose music I would never have thought of buying, so in that way, the music industry has gained slightly from file sharing.

However, I do accept that there ARE people (and a lot of them) who don't give a fig about the quality of what they listen to, and just download stuff with no intention of purchasing a CD of it.

One thing I would like to see, however, is the likes of Apple, Napster, OD2 (provide music services for various people including Microsoft, Wanadoo & HMV) reducing prices.

While I can believe the prices paid are fair if you have a CD (with all it's associated costs), they should be reduced for downloaded tracks. Download companies don't have transport, warehousing and retail costs.


The same as everything really...........poorly managed making a CD say £5.99 would make sales go through the roof, piracy would become unsustainable and die but while they continue to rip people off piracy will always remain and be sucessful.Not necessarily. At work, we operate a scheme where our students can download legitimate copies of Microsoft development software and operating systems for free as long as we (and Microsoft) log who downloads what.

We still have problems with students pirating their development software and OSes.

So, if students are happy to pirate something (and risk legal action from Microsoft) for something they get for free anyway...

[PC_Arcade]

Semantics..

If you download music and don't buy the CD, you are still denying the various people involved in the creation and manufacture of the album their money much the same as you would be if you stole the CD.

Rubbish, if I were to download an MP3 no body LOSES anything, although they don't gain anything either.
If I steal a CD then the retailer loses the cost of that CD and THAT is the difference, theft carries an associated loss, infringement doesn't (necesarily)

It has nothing to do with semantics.

[Neil]

Rubbish, if I were to download an MP3 no body LOSES anything, although they don't gain anything either.
If I steal a CD then the retailer loses the cost of that CD and THAT is the difference, theft carries an associated loss, infringement doesn't (necesarily)

It has nothing to do with semantics.

Errr-so if you download that MP3 (as opposed to buying it)-where does the £3.99 (for example) come from that the retailer would have taken when you went into the shop & bought it?

[Stuart]

Rubbish, if I were to download an MP3 no body LOSES anything, although they don't gain anything either.
If I steal a CD then the retailer loses the cost of that CD and THAT is the difference, theft carries an associated loss, infringement doesn't (necesarily)

It has nothing to do with semantics. You are arguing semantics.. If you download an mp3 and don't buy the CD, then while the retailer might not have lost the cost of the CD, he or she has lost a potentional sale. Also, the other costs I mentioned above still need to be paid, and while the loss of one potential sale will not affect anyone much (the record company still has to pay the studio time etc, but the cost of that in each single is probably less than £1), if 100 or 1000 people download a song and don't buy the CD that will affect everyone involved, and indirectly may cause a slight "loss" to the people who do buy the CD (they will have to pay increased prices). So, I believe that it is theft in much the same way as, say, tapping into somebody's phone to make calls and not paying for them.

Either way, whether it's theft or copyright infringement, it's still illegal. That's what I meant when I said you are arguing semantics.

[PC_Arcade]

That's where all the anti-piracy statistics are skewed, you assume that I would have bought it had I not downloaded it.
I would be very suprised if that was the case for every mp3 that is downloaded.

Besides this wasn't really about Piracy, or at least that wasn't what I intended when I posted the news initially. It was about NTL's alleged supporting of "illegal" downloads.

[Neil]

That's where all the anti-piracy statistics are skewed, you assume that I would have bought it had I not downloaded it.
I would be very suprised if that was the case for every mp3 that is downloaded.

Besides this wasn't really about Piracy, or at least that wasn't what I intended when I posted the news initially. It was about NTL's alleged supporting of "illegal" downloads.

I can't see any "support" for illegal downloads from ntl-alledged or otherwise....:shrug:

[Stuart]

Maybe you could argue they were doing it and got caught, but it sounds like they were geniuinely not aware it was happening.


Similarly telecommunications firm NTL blames its media buying agency which places adverts with third party networks featuring thousands of sites.

Since the matter was brought to its attention last month, the agency has strict instructions to make sure ads do not appear on such sites, a spokesman told the BBC News website.

Assuming their ad appears on thousands of sites, surely they cannot automatically know the content of each and every one? Still,it looks like they will stop it.

[ian@huth]

You are arguing semantics.. If you download an mp3 and don't buy the CD, then while the retailer might not have lost the cost of the CD, he or she has lost a potentional sale. Also, the other costs I mentioned above still need to be paid, and while the loss of one potential sale will not affect anyone much (the record company still has to pay the studio time etc, but the cost of that in each single is probably less than £1), if 100 or 1000 people download a song and don't buy the CD that will affect everyone involved, and indirectly may cause a slight "loss" to the people who do buy the CD (they will have to pay increased prices). So, I believe that it is theft in much the same way as, say, tapping into somebody's phone to make calls and not paying for them.

Either way, whether it's theft or copyright infringement, it's still illegal. That's what I meant when I said you are arguing semantics.

You make a very good point you make there. It has been mentioned that people download music illegally because it is too dear but in doing so they are probably being responsible for the price being so high.

[ntluser]

The downloading of MP3s via P2P is just as illegal as a mate giving you a copy of a CD he/she has bought, for the simple reason that if you couldn't download it or get a copy from a friend you would have to pay a music retailer to obtain it.

The difficulty arises when music companies no longer produce a particular CD so that it is not commercially available. In those circumstances all the companies could claim is breach of copyright to which anyone accused can argue that they were quite prepared to pay but the CD was not commercially available.

This defence does not apply to people who week in week out download the latest songs, which could be purchased because they are commercially available either on the internet or in local high street stores.

[PC_Arcade]

I can't see any "support" for illegal downloads from ntl-alledged or otherwise....:shrug:
Can you not??

If you read the article Paul Myers, who is the Chief Exec of wippit alledges that "(companies)" who now steadfastly support copyright theft with real cash money include Nat West, Vodafone, O2, First Direct, NTL, and Renault," "

It's not something I've made up nor am I saying that the accusation is true.

[Neil]

Can you not??

If you read the article Paul Myers, who is the Chief Exec of wippit alledges that

That's his opinion that they support it, because they advertise on a P2P site. They don't advertise on an illegal P2P site, just a P2P site-very diferent.

It's not something I've made up nor am I saying that the accusation is true.
But it's something I feel you have overreacted to, & taken out of context. :)

[ntluser]

Can you not??

If you read the article Paul Myers, who is the Chief Exec of wippit alledges that

It's not something I've made up nor am I saying that the accusation is true.

The companies concerned may be accused of giving support to illegal music downloads via P2P through the services they provide but it is the abuse of those service by users that causes the illegality.

If a person rents a car and then goes out and uses it to deliberately run people over, does the public blame the driver for his/her improper and illegal use of the car or the car rental company who loaned that person the car in the first place.

I think it's unreasonable to ask any company providing services to have such an intimate knowledge of their customers that they can identify with ease those who will abuse the service and those who will not.

It's up to users to opt not to illegally use services provided, because if they don't the law may either stop the service or target illegal users as they have done in America.

[PC_Arcade]

But it's something I feel you have overreacted to, & taken out of context.

Umm, ok. Like you have done with this topic IMHO.

This site used to be NThellworld, and yet it seems that if NTL are critiscised (even jokingly as in this thread) then the NTL brigade whip round and defend them to the hilt totally blindly.

[themelon]

You make a very good point you make there. It has been mentioned that people download music illegally because it is too dear but in doing so they are probably being responsible for the price being so high.

Seems interesting the way record companies always try and spout this rubbish to the consumer.

I dont believe record companies are really losing anything from mp3 downloads, in fact in a way I belive they are gaining. Im not going to spend money on an Album unless I like it, supposing I download a few mp3s I like I and many others are likely to invest in the album...........pure and simple its better quality and you get the full package.

The only money they lose, is the money they waste on trying to stop mp3 downloads.

They will NEVER stop Piracy in whatever form it exists, the people who dont buy genuine records now, will never buy records in the future, whether they download from the web or buy from the dodgy bloke in the white transit wrecker.

All the record companies can do is make their product more attractive to the (in the main) law abiding mass market.........the obvious way to do this is make it cheaper, if this means the redundancies of a few fat cat directors who are jobsworths then good............maybe they will get a proper job!

If they succeed in their battle against the illegal mp3..........I hope it backfires on them and some big record companies go under..........maybe then they will wake up and smell the coffee its the 21st century.

[Stuart]

and yet it seems that if NTL are critiscised (even jokingly as in this thread) then the NTL brigade whip round and defend them to the hilt totally blindly.
Not always. I personally have been very critical of NTL in the past, and so has Neil.

As far as I am concerned, if NTL do wrong, they should be critcised. No point in criticising them if they haven't done anything wrong.

[Neil]

Umm, ok. Like you have done with this topic IMHO.
Errr no.

I'm getting sick of everything I post here being moved and or taken out of context.
Put it in the right place & explain yourself better then. :)

This site used to be NThellworld
Correct.

and yet it seems that if NTL are critiscised (even jokingly as in this thread) then the NTL brigade whip round and defend them to the hilt totally blindly.
Yeah, that's right-I'm one of the "ntl brigade" :D

No one is defending anyone here, what's happened is you have made an arse of yourself with the thread you started.

Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

[Chris W]

If the high price is the concern, why not use something like Napster, or Tesco to download music? 79p is not too expensive IMO- much better than £3.99 anyway!

[ntluser]

Umm, ok. Like you have done with this topic IMHO.

I'm getting sick of everything I post here being moved and or taken out of context. This site used to be NThellworld, and yet it seems that if NTL are critiscised (even jokingly as in this thread) then the NTL brigade whip round and defend them to the hilt totally blindly.

NTL can be legitimately criticised for a lot of things, but they can't be held responsible for the illegal activities of users.

Customers will rightly complain from time to time about poor service or poor company policy because that is something NTL can do something about.

If you expect NTL to police P2P downloads all they can do is give the police a list of all their customers and say that if anyone is found connecting to a P2P site by police, FBI, music and software industry monitoring teams, their service will be disconnected and as the police will have the downloader's details the police can charge them directly.

I think some people would be leaving NTL pretty sharpish if that happened, which isn't good for NTL's business as they would be being punished because users won't accept responsibility for their illegal actions.

Criticise NTL all you wish, just do it realistically and fairly.

[ray_uk]

This is the same old arguement that applies to so many things for example cars and guns can be used to perform theft, however they can both also be used for non criminal/illegal activities.

[Paul]

Yeah, that's right-I'm one of the "ntl brigade" :D
:erm:




:rofl:

[PC_Arcade]

Errr no.


Put it in the right place & explain yourself better then. :)


Correct.


Yeah, that's right-I'm one of the "ntl brigade" :D

No one is defending anyone here, what's happened is you have made an arse of yourself with the thread you started.

Sorry, but that's just the way it is.


I don't feel as though I've made an arse of myself, all I posted was a quote from the BBC where NTL are accused of supporting illegal P2P activity, I compared that to the fact that last year they were pulled up for advertising spiderman as available for download before it was available on dvd.
Then pointed out that Copyright infringement isn't theft (which it isn't) and then I got critiscised for criticising NTL!
Although I did maintain that If I download an mp3, that doesn't neccesarily mean I would have bought it, a point which you ignored. Is that what you were referring to when you claim I've "made an ass of myself"?

And if you're saying I posted this in the wrong place, where should it have been posted?

But the way I see it NTL advertise on edonkey, which BTW is NOT a website, it's a p2p application, they have in the past advertised their service on the strength of being able to download illegally (which IIRC they were slapped on the wrist for (Yep just checked, informally resolved on the 19th october 2003)). They seem to want to play both sides of the piracy argument,
I find it VERY hard to believe they have no control over where their ads are placed and as they use the same ad agency as telewest (who's ads don't appear on edonkey AFAIK) it strikes me as odd.

[ntluser]

This is the same old arguement that applies to so many things for example cars and guns can be used to perform theft, however they can both also be used for non criminal/illegal activities.

Owning a legally purchased & licensed gun is legal but it can be used illegally as in a murder or robbery.

Owning a legally purchased, licensed, taxed and insured car is legal but it can be used illegally as in speeding etc.

Owning a legally purchased and downloaded MP3 is legal,but it could be used illegally as in infringing noise regulations.

Owning an unpurchased, downloaded MP3 is legal if the MP3 is freeware.

In all other cases owning the MP3 is illegal because it either infringes copyright or is theft, both of which leave you open to legal action.

If you are so confident that it isn't illegal then e-mail one of the record companies and admit downloading MP3s of their songs and see what happens.

[Stuart]

<snip>
But the way I see it NTL advertise on edonkey, which BTW is NOT a website, it's a p2p application, they have in the past advertised their service on the strength of being able to download illegally (which IIRC they were slapped on the wrist for (Yep just checked, informally resolved on the 19th october 2003)). They seem to want to play both sides of the piracy argument,
I find it VERY hard to believe they have no control over where their ads are placed and as they use the same ad agency as telewest (who's ads don't appear on edonkey AFAIK) it strikes me as odd.
Erm, I believe the article you posted referred to eDonkey as a website.. I don't think anyone else has.

One final thing, just because NTL and Telewest are using the same ad agency, does NOT mean they advertise in the same places. Has it occured to you that they may just be advertising on doubleclick, or a similar online agency that eDonkey uses to provide adverts. Also, no one said they have no control. In fact, I would say they have control as they have said the adverts will stop. I said they may not have been aware their ads were on eDonkey, which is possible.

[dragon]

heres my view

with a physical object u either take it on don't

but with digital content the difference is instead of TAKEING the item you making a duplicate therefore have never actally stolen the item.

heres a hypertical (yeah i know its not possible... YET)

instead of stealing the ROLEX i point some gadet at it and PING... i have an identical rolex yet the original is still in the shop did i just steal the rolex?



another thing is i disagree with copyright as 2 people can have the same idea.

artists/bands should be producing this work for the love of the music not to make $$$ imo the artists should make their music avalable for download cheaply and cut the record co out of the loop completly as all record/movie companies are is money grabing pure and simple.

[ian@huth]

heres my view

with a physical object u either take it on don't

but with digital content the difference is instead of TAKEING the item you making a duplicate therefore have never actally stolen the item.

heres a hypertical (yeah i know its not possible... YET)

instead of stealing the ROLEX i point some gadet at it and PING... i have an identical rolex yet the original is still in the shop did i just steal the rolex?



another thing is i disagree with copyright as 2 people can have the same idea.

artists/bands should be producing this work for the love of the music not to make $$$ imo the artists should make their music avalable for download cheaply and cut the record co out of the loop completly as all record/movie companies are is money grabing pure and simple.

Hmmmmm. So as long as you don't take a physical object it is alright then?

It's OK to climb over the football ground wall to avoid paying the £20 entance fee?

It's OK to forge £50 notes as you are not taking anything?

It's OK to view TV without a TV licence as you are not taking anything?

Artists/bands should be producing this work for the love of music not to make $$$. Get real, for most of them it's their job and they need to get paid in order to live. On the same priciple should actors, footballers, etc do the job for love? Should you do your job for the love of it and not get paid?

Are you bothered about how many people would be out of work if music was only available via download? Are you bothered about the vast majority of people (most people don't have PC's or other download hardware) who could never own any music if it was only available via download. Or are you only bothered about yourself and what you can get for nothing?

[Stuart]

heres my view

with a physical object u either take it on don't

but with digital content the difference is instead of TAKEING the item you making a duplicate therefore have never actally stolen the item.

heres a hypertical (yeah i know its not possible... YET)

instead of stealing the ROLEX i point some gadet at it and PING... i have an identical rolex yet the original is still in the shop did i just steal the rolex?



another thing is i disagree with copyright as 2 people can have the same idea.


OK. Look at it this way. Imagine you design watches for a living. You spend months designing and building a watch, that is so amazingly different to everyone else. You have spend thousands of pounds developing it. You decide to build and market it yourself, spending hundreds of thousands of pounds of borrowed money in the process.

Now, some git decides to copy it. He has spent nothing developing the watch, and the factories he uses are sweatshops in some small Indian village, so his costs are a small fraction of yours, and he can sell an exact duplicate of your watch for 95% less and still make a profit. You lose trade. You go bankrupt, but still have hundreds of thousands of pounds of money to pay back.

That's why we need copyright laws. To protect innovators.

artists/bands should be producing this work for the love of the music not to make $$$ imo the artists should make their music avalable for download cheaply and cut the record co out of the loop completly as all record/movie companies are is money grabing pure and simple.

You can set up a band for next to nothing. You could probably fully kit out an average band (2 Guitarists, 1 Keyboard Player, 1 Drummer and 1 Singer) for around £3000 to £4000. This would get you a band that could play live gigs.

Now, add recording studio time (which can be £100s an hour) for recording an album. Assuming the bands where distributing online, you can also add ISP costs (which can get quite expensive as you would need a commercial hosting package, and if you have 2000 people download an MP3, that will consume an awful lot of bandwidth and extra bandwidth costs money). That would probably be covered by the download fees charged to listeners.

The problem comes when a band's music doesn't sell well. They still have the fixed costs (studio time etc), but their takings from downloads may not cover those. What record companies have done in the past is to cover these losses with the profits from other bands. This, incidentally, is how funding works in all media industries. For instance, in Hollywood, they may spend £70 or £80 million on a Blockbuster movie, but that may generate £500m to £1bn in profits, which can then be spent on filming 50 to 100 smaller films. BTW, before you say Hollywood doesn't do this, it does. Hollywood produces anywhere up to 150 movies a week, and a small percentage of these are hits.

In today's increasingly commercial music industry, there are also the marketing costs, and video cost, which also need to be covered from somewhere.

In short, we do need record companies..

[dragon]

My point wasnt that well put what i was trying to say is why should we pay for 13quid or whatever for a cd when we probably only want 1 track on it...

and even singles are 4quid and you prob only want one track on them

maybe when LEgal download stores are cheap, and not so ridden with DRM that its hell to copy the file for personal use then more people would pay for music....

p2p will be around for at least the forseeable future Sueing out of people is not the anwser lowing prices is!

Also as someone pointed out p2p itself is not illegal its what people do with it that is.


i can understand Bands wanting to earn a living what i dont like is paying though the nose for a song just so some record company executive gets millions of $$$.


also i wouldnt nick the rolex or get a fake id just buy a cheaper watch from another brand :p:

you can pay 5quid for a watch or 5000 but both will tell you the time.

I think i can see why people download from p2p its because they can get what they want for free and most of them probably dont care if its legal or not.

another thing is i think more software should come with at least a 2 machine licence as standard as with the falling costs of technology more and more people have a laptop and a desktop..