View Full Version : Israel's losing the plot
Idly wonders why israel can get away with discrimination like this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3152651.stm) which would cause global outrage if tried by any other country?.....
will it be too long before they emulate the ways of the nazis last century, or rather, will any nation raise a hand in protest if they did??
homealone
15-08-2003, 21:41
Originally posted by Mark W
Idly wonders why israel can get away with discrimination like this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3152651.stm) which would cause global outrage if tried by any other country?.....
will it be too long before they emulate the ways of the nazis last century, or rather, will any nation raise a hand in protest if they did??
I can't answer your first question, Mark - although I do take your point, I can see how this might be exploited?
On your next 2 questions, I watched a Ray Mears "survival where-ever" program last night - he was in Belarus. He made a big point of highlighting the atrocities carried out by the nazis during the second world war - against the Russian Jews & interviewed some of the Partisan survivors. I sat here & cried with them!
I hope those mistakes are never made by man again. I would like to hope that, should Israel attempt them, the nations of the world WOULD raise a hand. - whatever "side" you are on?
Gaz
I am of Latvian descent. My people have had a long history of persecuting Jews, as have most of the peoples of Europe (for at least a millenia) :( ....including the English (the word for it is 'pogrom').
The Jewish state has had a long struggle to establish and defend itself againsy enemies from literally all sides. I think that they are justified a big degree of paranoia. :shrug:
Idly wonders why israel can get away with discrimination like this which would cause global outrage if tried by any other country?..... Really. Where is the outrage that it is illegal for Malaysians to marry an Israeli citizen? Where is the outrage that it is illegal for a Lybian to marry an Israeli citizen?
Israel lost the plot years ago.
The Diplomat
15-08-2003, 23:37
Question: Which country alone in the Middle East has nuclear weapons?
Answer: Israel.
Q: Which country in the Middle East refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections?
Answer: Israel.
Q: Which country in the Middle East seized the sovereign territory of other nations by military force and continues to occupy it in defiance of United Nations Security Council resolutions?
Answer: Israel.
Q: Which country in the Middle East routinely violates the international borders of another sovereign state with warplanes and artillery and naval gunfire?
Answer: Israel.
Q: What American ally in the Middle East has for years sent assassins into other countries to kill its political enemies (a practice sometimes called exporting terrorism)?
Answer: Israel.
Q: In which country in the Middle East have high-ranking military officers admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war were executed?
Answer: Israel.
Q: What country in the Middle East refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war?
Answer: Israel.
Q: What country in the Middle East created 762,000 refugees and refuses to allow them to return to their homes, farms and businesses?
Answer: Israel.
Q: What country in the Middle East refuses to pay compensation to people whose land, bank accounts and businesses it confiscated?
Answer: Israel.
Q: In what country in the MiddleEast was a high-ranking United Nations diplomat assassinated?
Answer: Israel.
Q: In what country in the Middle East did the man who ordered the assassination of a high-ranking U.N. diplomat become prime minister?
Answer: Israel.
Q: What country in the Middle East blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship, the USS Liberty, in international waters, killing 34 and wounding 171 American sailors?
Answer: Israel.
Q: What country in the Middle East employed a spy, Jonathan Pollard, to steal classified documents and then gave some of them to the Soviet Union?
Answer: Israel.
Q: What country at first denied any official connection to Pollard, then voted to make him a citizen and has continuously demanded that the American president grant Pollard a full pardon?
Answer: Israel.
Q. What Middle East country allows American Jewish murderers to flee to its country to escape punishment in the United States and refuses to extradite them once in their custody?
Answer: Israel
Q. What Middle East country preaches against hate yet builds a shrine and a memorial for a murderer who killed 29 Palestinians while they prayed in their Mosque?
Answer: Israel
Q: What country on Planet Earth has the second most powerful lobby in the United States, according to a recent Fortune magazine survey of Washington insiders?
Answer: Israel.
Q. Which country in the Middle East deliberately targeted a U.N. Refugee Camp in Qana, Lebanon and killed 103 innocent men, women, and especially children?
Answer: Israel
Q: Which country in the Middle East is in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council resolutions and has been protected from 29 more by U.S. vetoes?
Answer: Israel.
Q. Which country in the Middle East receives more than one-thind of all U.S. aid yet is the 16th richest country in the world?
Answer: Israel
Q. Which country in the Middle East receives U.S. weapons for free and then sells the technology to the Republic of China even at the objections of the U.S.?
Answer: Israel
Q. Which country in the Middle East routinely insults the American people by having its Prime Minister address the United States Congress and lecturing them like children on why they have no right to reduce foreign aid?
Answer: Israel
Q. Which country in the Middle East had its Prime Minister announce to his staff not to worry about what the United States says because " We control America?"
Answer: Israel
Q. What country in the Middle East was cited by Amnesty International for demolishing more than 4000 innocent Palestinian homes as a means of ethnic cleansing.
Answer: Israel
Q. Which country in the Middle East has just recently used a weapon of mass destruction, a one-ton smart bomb, dropping it in the center of a highly populated area killing 15 civilians including 9 children?
Answer: Israel
Q. Which country in the Middle East routinely kills young Palestinian children for no reason other than throwing stones at armored vehichles, bulldozers, or tanks?
Answer: Israel
Q. Which country in the Middle East signed the Oslo Accords promising to halt any new Jewish Settlement construction, but instead, has built more than 270 new settlements since the signing?
Answer: Israel
Q. Which country in the Middle East has assassinated more than 100 political officials of its opponent in the last 2 years while killing hundreds of civilians in the process, including dozens of children?
Answer: Israel
Q.. Which country in the Middle East regularly violates the Geneva Convention by imposing collective punishment on entire towns, villages, and camps, for the acts of a few, and even goes as far as demolishing entire villages while people are still in their homes?
Answer: Israel
QED
Originally posted by Ramrod
I am of Latvian descent. My people have had a long history of persecuting Jews, as have most of the peoples of Europe (for at least a millenia) :( ....including the English (the word for it is 'pogrom').
The Jewish state has had a long struggle to establish and defend itself againsy enemies from literally all sides. I think that they are justified a big degree of paranoia. :shrug:
im sorry.....why do people seem to think that that makes it ok for them to treat others in the same way?
as for enemies on all sides - there are not many countries that can boast invading just about ALL their neighbours.....and those that did dont seem to be remembered fondly for doing so.....
paranoia is one thing.....building security fences to subdue a race of people, forbidding marriages between races, oh and lets not forget THEY were the ones that broke the ceasefire.....think that takes 'paranioa' a bit far perhaps??
Originally posted by Mark W
im sorry.....why do people seem to think that that makes it ok for them to treat others in the same way?
as for enemies on all sides - there are not many countries that can boast invading just about ALL their neighbours.....and those that did dont seem to be remembered fondly for doing so.....
paranoia is one thing.....building security fences to subdue a race of people, forbidding marriages between races, oh and lets not forget THEY were the ones that broke the ceasefire.....think that takes 'paranioa' a bit far perhaps?? I am not condoning all their acts but I can see where they are coming from:(
Originally posted by Ramrod
I am not condoning all their acts but I can see where they are coming from:(
out of interest, what do you see from the palestinians point of view?......or, should i say (to force you off the fence ;) ) whos side has the moral high ground in your eyes?
Originally posted by Mark W
out of interest, what do you see from the palestinians point of view?......or, should i say (to force you off the fence ;) ) whos side has the moral high ground in your eyes?
Ha! .....neither:D
of interest (http://www.mideastweb.org/mpalestine.htm)
Dissagreeing with the Israeli gov's actions does not make you anti-jew (despite the Israeli gov's claims to the contrary).
I am appauled at Israeli's actions since it's creation, as considering what the Jews went through with WW2 etc they of all people should know how to treat others.
I am also appauled at the palestinian terrorists.
timewarrior2001
16-08-2003, 10:19
Israel is actually a false state anyway, didnt the UN set it up in 1947 or something?
Sure that British troops had somethign to do with the place.
Anyway I am sick of hearing that we should pity the jews because of the holocaust, well I'm sorry I wont pity any people that are capapble of as much bloodshed as the israelis are.
What are they trying to achieve? their own holocaust using the palestinians? After all they stole a lot of land form palestine and now refuse to acknowledge the palestinian state.
It sucks and the US has a lot to answer for. Soon enough the rest of the middle east are going to attack Israel and if they retaliate using nuclear weapons then the US must act accordingly (and nuke Israel).
Whats Israel going to do when the US has to withdraw its support because of the acts of terrorism Israel carries out? They will panick because the whole middle east hates them its horryfying to think about it, but they will be massacred.
I blame the palestinians. Why simple every bloody time some progress is made on peice what happens. The palestinians send another sucicide bomber out to kill yep more innocent people. You see this all the time. They don't wont peice. I'd have had enough by now muyself and moved them all out and its sorted them let them kill people in their neighors country's instead. The same countrys that are helping them to do this
TigaSefi
16-08-2003, 10:51
Originally posted by Defiant
I blame the palestinians. Why simple every bloody time some progress is made on peice what happens. The palestinians send another sucicide bomber out to kill yep more innocent people. You see this all the time. They don't wont peice. I'd have had enough by now muyself and moved them all out and its sorted them let them kill people in their neighors country's instead. The same countrys that are helping them to do this
Simplistic view of a vastly complicated situation but yes that exactly what happening. They (palestinians) send in suicide bombers and we (Israelis - I am one) go and get the "head honcho". The man who instigated the attacks as such the recents ones and they don't give themselves easily so either escape or end up dead. And palestinians make it look like Israel's fault somehow completely ignoring the recent suicides attacks.
It gonna be like this for a long time till palestinians stop sending in suicide bombers fuelled by blood money from other arabs states who should keep their noses out of our business.
And I don't agree with the new fence Israel are building because it gonna cause land arguments ie this is mine and this is yours etc. Childish bickering that casuses lives to be lost. Strange the Hezbollah also attacks from the north whenever Peace seems to be on the horizon and Syria and Lebanon get a rebuttal to keep out of it. it like saying "Hey don't forget us, we want something out of this too". Erm no, you are terrorist groups so you are entitled to zip.
Originally posted by TigaSefi
Simplistic view of a vastly complicated situation but yes that exactly what happening. They (palestinians) send in suicide bombers and we (Israelis - I am one) go and get the "head honcho". The man who instigated the attacks as such the recents ones and they don't give themselves easily so either escape or end up dead. And palestinians make it look like Israel's fault somehow completely ignoring the recent suicides attacks.
:eek: ohhh....right o....that last ceasefire then? who broke that? in fact, after the militant groups turned 20 years of saying they are gonna kill israelis around and declared a ceasefire to give the peace process a chance, was it not israel who said "big deal, we are gonna keep on killing you anyway"? some effort towards peace that is. :rolleyes:
As for suicide attacks......im sure if the palastinians were getting 3 billion dollars in military aid from one of those meddiling countries like isreal does, im sure they would be fighting for the homeland in a rather different way
It gonna be like this for a long time till palestinians stop sending in suicide bombers fuelled by blood money from other arabs states who should keep their noses out of our business.
as above.....arab states helping the palastinians defend themselves and its called blood money....the us gives israel an infintitly larger sum of money to subdue the palastinians with military might, and its called keeping the status quo....:rolleyes:
And I don't agree with the new fence Israel are building because it gonna cause land arguments ie this is mine and this is yours etc. Childish bickering that casuses lives to be lost.
i agree with you to an extent - but if you were a farmer, and someone decided you wernt allowed to get to, and therefore use half of your land, i doubt youd appreciate your argument about it being called 'childish'....
Strange the Hezbollah also attacks from the north whenever Peace seems to be on the horizon and Syria and Lebanon get a rebuttal to keep out of it. it like saying "Hey don't forget us, we want something out of this too". Erm no, you are terrorist groups so you are entitled to zip.
ummm, no actually. If you read the news, the hezbollah fired antiaircraft fire - that landed in northern israel.
The were firing at israeli warplanes that think nothing violating the soverign airspace of another country........
you are an israeli TigaSefi, that do you feel about the points raised by the diplomat earlier.....or are they all ok by you?
Originally posted by timewarrior2001
Israel is actually a false state anyway, didnt the UN set it up in 1947 or something?
Sure that British troops had somethign to do with the place.
Anyway I am sick of hearing that we should pity the jews because of the holocaust, well I'm sorry I wont pity any people that are capapble of as much bloodshed as the israelis are.
What are they trying to achieve? their own holocaust using the palestinians? After all they stole a lot of land form palestine and now refuse to acknowledge the palestinian state.''...
.
Check your history, and there are plenty of history books available. Israel came into existence in 1948 following years of struggle. The holocaust saw the deaths of six million plus jews by a German regime that committed horrible crimes against humanity.
The palestinians had a chance to build their own state in 1948 and have had that repeated. Instead their leadership chose to exploit anti-jewish hatred and accept funding from arab states that play the anti-Israeli card. palestinian propaganda promotes hatred against the jews all this is unacceptable behaviour.
One cannot agree with every decision the Israeli government makes but it is a democracy and still the only middle eastern democratic state. Israel is entitled to defend itself and take whatever measures are needed.
Whilst the palestinians engage in cowardly, homicidal bombings peace will be harder to find. By the way don't you notice how the leaders of palestinian terror groups enjoy western lifestyles, they love their 4x4s and send young palestinians to their deaths whist the leaders themseves continue to enjoy their own selfish lives.
I'm all in favour of peace but the palestinians themselves must realise they will get nowhere with homicidal killings and learn to compromise.
:spin:
Originally posted by Mark W
As for suicide attacks......im sure if the palastinians were getting 3 billion dollars in military aid from one of those meddiling countries like isreal does, im sure they would be fighting for the homeland in a rather different way
We were talking about how they sent these mongified plebs over everytime piece is in progress. Ie they dont want piece so what the hell has your 3 billion dollers got to do with it. Their terrerists in my book. Would you really give them money knowing just how braindead they are. Sending people out to kill themselve's believing their going to a better place blah blah blah
Originally posted by Gogogo
One cannot agree with every decision the Israeli government makes but it is a democracy and still the only middle eastern democratic state. Israel is entitled to defend itself and take whatever measures are needed.
I think youll find that lebanon, egypt and syria are democracies too....
so israel can take whatever measures it needs to defend itself? but palestine cannot? so they just have to put up with israeli curfews in THEIR cities, israeli armour and troops in THEIR cities, assassanations by israelies - often causing ALOT of 'collateral' damage - in THEIR cities, and having their houses bulldozed and having jewish settlements build on THEIR land? to fight againsed that is wrong??
Whilst the palestinians engage in cowardly, homicidal bombings peace will be harder to find.
As opposed to israeli forces attacking via helcopter gunships and supersonic fighter jets againsed people who cant fight back?
palestine dont have a standing army - israel have made damn sure of that - so they have to fight back anyway they can.....
....yes, this causes terror for israelies, but then the palestinian people live under the fear of israeli occupation every day too.....
By the way don't you notice how the leaders of palestinian terror groups enjoy western lifestyles, they love their 4x4s and send young palestinians to their deaths whist the leaders themseves continue to enjoy their own selfish lives.
what a pointless statement. that is the nature of leaders. at the last gulf war i didnt see blair or bush slogging it out on the frontline with the troops did you? rather they were being driven round in limos going to state dinners.....:rolleyes:
I'm all in favour of peace but the palestinians themselves must realise they will get nowhere with homicidal killings and learn to compromise.
compromise???? they are second class citizens in their own land...they have only the rights the israelies decide to give them, they have their houses and land taken from them by force to make way for israeli settlements, they suffer daily killings and murder at the hands of israeli deaths and when they try to fight againsed this - because diplomacy didnt work - they get branded as terrorists...
some facts taken from HERE (http://www.womenspeacepalestine.org/statistics.htm)
since the second uprising there have been between 2,386 and 2,532 palestinian deaths (and that does NOT include those killed whilst engaged in military action againsed israelies , and between 23,094 and 41,000 + injuries
as opposed to 742 to 806 israeli deaths, and 5,586 injuries
.....yet the popular belief is its the israelies that are being murdered en masse.....
darkangel
16-08-2003, 15:08
Originally posted by Gogogo
Check your history, and there are plenty of history books available. Israel came into existence in 1948 following years of struggle. u want to read those book yourself Israel committed horrific human rights abuses at terrorist action in expanding their state in the early years and are still committing those acts,ffs Israels prime minister is wanted for war crimes etc in several countries
darkangel
16-08-2003, 15:14
Originally posted by Defiant
We were talking about how they sent these mongified plebs over everytime piece is in progress. Ie they dont want piece so what the hell has your 3 billion dollers got to do with it. Their terrerists in my book. Would you really give them money knowing just how braindead they are. Sending people out to kill themselve's believing their going to a better place blah blah blah unfortunately they believe to highlight their cause they must take these actions it would be very easy for the world to forget the Palestinians if they weren't attacking Israel, i am of course against all attacks on civilian targets in Israel, imo their is no difference between the state sponsored terrorism of Israel and some of the members of the PLO
Originally posted by darkangel
ffs Israels prime minister is wanted for war crimes etc in several countries
http://www.zpub.com/un/wanted-as.html
darkangel
16-08-2003, 15:18
Originally posted by Mark W
http://www.zpub.com/un/wanted-as.html yep i met the slimey little troll in 79
Originally posted by Mark W
I think youll find that lebanon, egypt and syria are democracies too....
Mark W. Wow, I think you are stetching reality a little, Israel is a parliamentary democracy, ministers are responsible to the Knesset and ultimately to the electorate. What you have in Egypt and Lebanon is a fake resemblance to democracy but still far from any parliamentary democracy. Syria is Assad's toy all but a military regime.
I think if palestinian terrorist engage in homicidal murders then they must expect the Israeli army to do its duty in tracking down these cowardly murderers and bring them to justice.
4X4s! No, I'm serious, palestinian terrorist leaders will never be the ones who will carry out homicidal killings these will done by simple minded palestinian fools. palestinian terror leaders are not elected representatives and Bush/Blair have been elected by their repespective constituencies and are accountable for their actions when the next elections come.
I'm astonished by the hatred for Israel that I read in these posts.
darkangel, I can assure you I've read very widely, I see little substance in your allegations re: Israeli actions relating to war crimes or whatever, perhaps you would like to enlighten us all. As I've said before I don't agree with every action by the Israeli state and indeed Prime Minister Sharon, Sharon whatever may have happened in the past has sincerely sought peace and risks his own personal reputation with his party.
In the end peace will only come as long as the palestinian leadership recognise that their cowardly terror campaigns must end and accept the reality that Israel is not going to go away.
A new palestinian leadership following the end of arafat, committed to the recognition of Israel's right to exist is the only way forward.
Otherwise we just agree to differ.
:spin:
darkangel
16-08-2003, 15:57
Originally posted by Gogogo
I'm astonished by the hatred for Israel that I read in these posts.
darkangel, I can assure you I've read very widely, I see little substance in your allegations re: Israeli actions relating to war crimes or whatever, perhaps you would like to enlighten us all. As I've said before I don't agree with every action by the Israeli state and indeed Prime Minister Sharon, Sharon whatever may have happened in the past has sincerely sought peace and risks his own personal reputation with his party.
In the end peace will only come as long as the palestinian leadership recognise that their cowardly terror campaigns must end and accept the reality that Israel is not going to go away.
A new palestinian leadership following the end of arafat, committed to the recognition of Israel's right to exist is the only way forward.
Otherwise we just agree to differ.
:spin: well if you've read as much as u think u've been wearing Rose tinted glasses how do u justify the Israel army shelling and bombing civilian targets?
Sharon has to give the impression that hes doing his best for peace so he can justify the murder of civilians he's risking nothing.
if Hitler or Mussolini or Stalin where still alive would you forgive them?
could u explain to us your experience of the situation
Originally posted by Gogogo
[B]
I'm astonished by the hatred for Israel that I read in these posts.
not hatred of israel, just of their actions and attitudes towards palastinians...
to justify what i feel. i was born in lebanon, and was there when israel invaded, with the aim to murder as many palastinian refugees as they could before withdrawing. i saw with my own eyes the actions of the israeli troops, and the wholesale murder they commited - all with the blessing of the states...
darkangel, I can assure you I've read very widely, I see little substance in your allegations re: Israeli actions relating to war crimes or whatever, perhaps you would like to enlighten us all.
http://come.to/qana
http://www.iacenter.org/jenin_photos.htm
http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/palestine/jeninmassacre/IsraelWarCrimesJenin.html
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/steveseymour/wecontrolamerica/WarCrimes.html
http://www.iacenter.org/palest_coi.htm
that was 30 seconds doing a google search.....
Prime Minister Sharon, Sharon whatever may have happened in the past has sincerely sought peace and risks his own personal reputation with his party.
its all very well saying the past is the past, but you REALLY should know what the leader of the israeli govt has spent his whole life doing before deciding how sincere his words to the press might be....
http://www.geocities.com/indictsharon/bio.html
darkangel. I cannot never forgive people like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and other mass murderers. No, arafat and palestinian terrorist leaders have more more in common with Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot. arafat like his terrorist friends does not believe in a free press, does not believe in democracy, does not believe in toleration.
Wearing, rose coloured glasses, well those that study pro-palestinian proganda are more fitting to that description. I have said that I don't neccessarily agree with everything the Israeli government or army do, but as palestinian leaders are failing to compromise for peace what else can anyone do!
Mark W. I'm not interested in reading pro-palestinian propaganda.
In the end there must be a genuine effort to find a peaceful solution to the problems of the middle east. It is encouraging that a number of arab states have to some extent gone some way to meet the peace initiative. It is tragic that so many must continue to die for the vanity of palestinian terrorist leaders.
Prime Minister Sharon has made his move by agreeing to promote peace but it's obvious that the palestinian terrorist leaders don't want peace. Frankly, until the palestinian people themselves understand that homicidal killings of Israeli citizens will never bring peace it looks as if peace will have to wait a long time.
:spin:
Originally posted by Gogogo
Mark W. I'm not interested in reading pro-palestinian propaganda.
:rolleyes:
well, how about the official UN report on the israeli shelling of a UN base in southern lebanon? or are the UN to be dismissed as producing 'pro-palestinian propaganda'?
http://leb.net/bcome/leb/qana1.html
if i may offer some extracts?
the pattern of impacts in the Qana area makes it unlikely that the shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of technical and/or procedural errors
I view with utmost gravity the shelling of the Fijian position, as I would hostilities directed against any United Nations peace-keeping position. But this incident is all the more serious because civilians, including women and children, had sought refuge in the United Nations compound at Qana.
During the shelling, there was a perceptible shift in the weight of fire from the mortar site to the United Nations compound
and the findings? it was the view of Franklin VAN KAPPEN
Major-General (Dutch Army), Military Adviser to the UN that the IDF did knowingly and deliberatly target the UN base with over 40 HE shells, causing the deaths of over 100 civilians and a few UN personnel
Mark W. Before we ourselves leave to enjoy the sunshine: I feel looking over your various posts and mine I think it significant that whilst the word peace - PEACE - is in every posting of mine it is totally absent in your contributions, not once have you mentioned the word - PEACE -.
I'm sure most palestinians and most Israeli citizens desire peace. It is only the small minded palestinian terrorist bullies who want to continue war. The current palestinian authority is engaged in dealing with the palestinian terrorist leaders but we must see more positive palestinian efforts for peace. Isarael is dealing with illegal settlements I would have thought a positive sign.
So, let's dump carefully rehearsed palestinian terrorist arguments and instead why not support the peace process, surely that is in everyones interest and give a chance to end the bitterness and violence.
:spin:
darkangel
17-08-2003, 12:33
Originally posted by Gogogo
Mark W. Before we ourselves leave to enjoy the sunshine: I feel looking over your various posts and mine I think it significant that whilst the word peace - PEACE - is in every posting of mine it is totally absent in your contributions, not once have you mentioned the word - PEACE -.
u can't have peace while an supposedly legitimate government attack clearly civilians targets I've yet to see you address any of these arguments?
Originally posted by Gogogo
I'm sure most Palestinians and most Israeli citizens desire peace. It is only the small minded Palestinian terrorist bullies who want to continue war. The current Palestinian authority is engaged in dealing with the Palestinian terrorist leaders but we must see more positive Palestinian efforts for peace. Israel is dealing with illegal settlements I would have thought a positive sign.
I'm also sure that Israeli citizens do not want to see their army being used to murder Palestinians and protesters for political and religious reasons, agreed that the Palestine authority must curb attacks on civilian targets in that they are not doing anywhere near enough, as far as settlements go the Israeli government is doing very little to stop settlement building on occupied Palestinian land any action that are being taken are to keep up appearance only, remember it's easy to call someone a terrorist when they aren't in an f16 or a tank
Originally posted by Gogogo
So, let's dump carefully rehearsed palestinian terrorist arguments and instead why not support the peace process, surely that is in everyones interest and give a chance to end the bitterness and violence.
you need effort to made on both sides in order for this chance to proceed, progress needs to be made on both sides with alot more effort made by the PLO and the Palestinian authority, Israel needs to make sure that the religious zealot within are not allowed to spread the racist hate and war mongering they are pushing a present
Excuse me darkangel, but what agenda are you promoting? "supposedly legitimate government"
you seem to have difficulty with accepting the Israeli government as legitimatelly elected. I think you'll find it is indeed a legitimate government elected fairly and freely and answerable to its electorate. It's right wing, I don't like it, but it's legitimate. Incidentally, remember arafat rejected a good deal from former Prime Minister Barak.
There is no point in venturing into the chronicle of events, what matters is now is what are the palestinians going to do in taking up the opportunity for negotiating peace with Israel?
The palestinian terrorist leaders hide amongst the ordinary civilian population, if the IDF takes the war to them fine, the palestinian terrorist leaders cannot be allowed to cowardly
hide whilst enjoying the fruits of a western life style and then complain if the IDF has just missed killing them, after all they want to go to paradise and yet whinge when the heat
gets too much for them!
So, in your view the palestinian terrorists can carry on with their homicidal killings but the IDF must simply look the other way and do nothing. No state anywhere will allow criminal gangs to engage in terror without responding and hunting down the killers.
The Israeli government has responded to the current peace initiative, it has begun to dismantle illegal settlements but clearly if the palestinian terrorist gangsters want to keep lauching homicidal bombers what do you expect? Yes, let there be peace but this must be negotiated between the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority and there must be a clear commitment to peace by the plalestinians most of all by arafat and the palestinian terrorist leaders.
Despite Palestinian claims of a temporary ceasefire, the past week has witnessed two suicide bombings with many more warnings of terror attacks received by Israeli intelligence. Israel
is committed to peace and continues to carry out confidence-building measures towards the Palestinian people. Israel now looks to the Palestinian Authority to dismantle the terrorist
infrastructure which remains the main obstacle to peace.
Prime Minister Sharon is willing to promote a peace settlement, but considering Israel is facing the daily threat of and actual palestinian terrorist homicidal killings, for any government it would be hard to keep on track.
:spin:
Now hang on a minute Gogogo!
No one has said that palestinian terrorists should be allowed to continue their attacks and killings.
However, I'm probably not the only one reading this who feels that you are saying Israel should be allowed to continue it's "terrorist"/military actions against the palestinian civilian population.
I make the distinction between palestinian civilians and terrorists.
Of course Israel should deal with the terrorists, but not at the expence of innocent people.
And if innocent civilians are injured/killed then the least Israel could do is appologise and hold an inquiry into what went wrong.
Bringing any charges against any Israeli forces if warrented
TigaSefi
17-08-2003, 22:43
Erm read UN reports ? Everyone knows UN are against Israel at every possible turn. Why ? Cos certain arabs states sit on tables that Israel gets no chance of being on since the arabs votes against them to be on it such as Security Council so yes most reports against Israel are biased. :rolleyes:
Interesting, as there are only 2 muslim countries on the security council at the moment, Pakistan and Syria
http://www.un.org/Docs/sc/unsc_members.html
Xaccers: IDF actions cannot be regarded as terrorist and it is offensive to suggest this. Everyone regrets accidental civilian deaths and measures are usually taken to investigate errors. But frankly, when palestinian terrorists hide amongst civilian population what can Israel do? The Palestinian Authority must act but doesn't. Israel must respond hunt down the palestinian terrorists and deal with them.
And whilst you are fond of quoting UN rhetoric how about this:
"Palestinian terrorist groups have been increasingly using children as human shields, gunmen, and suicide bombers. This claim, which has long been maintained by Israel, was finally recognised by the United Nations.
At a UN Security Council debate on January 14 2003, which focused on measures to protect children in armed conflict, Olara Otunnu, Under-Secretary-General and Special Representative of the Secretary-General for Children and Armed Conflict, condemned Palestinian suicide bombings as destructive to both Israeli and Palestinian children and called on the Palestinian authorities to do everything within their powers to stop all participation by children in the conflict.[1] †œThe use of suicide bombing is entirely unacceptable. Nothing can justify this,ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šà ¬Ã‚Â said Otunnu at the opening of Tuesday's day-long session. †œWe have witnessed both ends of these acts: children have been used as suicide bombers and children have been killed by suicide bombings. I call on the Palestinian authorities to do everything within their powers to stop all participation by children in this conflict,ââ‚ ¬Â he said[2].
While Israeli children are enrolled in an educational system based on values such as: peace, democracy, tolerance and the value of life, Palestinian children are raised on the basis of hatred, a desire to kill Jews and non-recognition of the State of IsraelÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šà ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s right to exist. The Palestinian Authority is not taking serious measures to combat this phenomenon, and continues to turn a blind eye to the Palestinian boys and girls victimised as †œself sacrificeââ‚ ¬Â on behalf of the entire Palestinian society.
It is disturbing and sad to see that in the year 2003 there are children in the Palestinian Authority who are raised and educated to hate and are manipulated by terrorist organisations for lethal violence. If there is to be any chance of real reform in the Palestinian Authority and of a future in which Palestinian and Israeli children share their lives together in peace, the Palestinian leadership must put an end to the cynical use it makes of children. "
1. UN press release SC/7631
2. Jerusalem Post January 15 2003
Xaccers there are 10 elected by the General Assembly for two-year terms, these are non-permanent usually nominated or recommened by regional states and not on the basis that they may have significant muslim populations.
:spin:
Originally posted by Gogogo
<snip>
Despite Palestinian claims of a temporary ceasefire, the past week has witnessed two suicide bombings with many more warnings of terror attacks received by Israeli intelligence.
ummm, i think you'll find that those suicide bombings happened after the IDF assassinated one of the jihad members (incidentally, they killed him by firing anti tank weapons into a residential building....) i dont condone the palestinian bombings, far from it - but to say its them that are wrecking the ceasefire is simply not true......
Israel is committed to peace and continues to carry out confidence-building measures towards the Palestinian people.
Hahahahaha.......meanwhile, back on planet earth :rolleyes:
how is building a 'security fence' to cage the palestinian people like cattle, keeping them in their cities under curfew, operating a 'shoot first, ask later' policy whilst applying that curfew, and now forbidding marriages with israelies etc etc 'carrying out confidence-building measures towards the palestinian people'???
Israel now looks to the Palestinian Authority to dismantle the terrorist
infrastructure which remains the main obstacle to peace.
with that i agree with you, the Authority should do more, but look at it from the palestinian PEOPLES point of view - they are getting shot, bulldozed and discriminated againsed every day by the israelies. who are they going to support more, the Authority, who want to sort things out by sitting round a table, or the militants, who activley fight back??
and do me a favour - leave sharon out of this....that man is wanted for war crimes againsed the palestinian people, so hes hardly the best person to be promoting peace with them....
(oh, and to be fair...nor is arafat - another loon from a bygone era)
timewarrior2001
18-08-2003, 09:51
The point still remains, if Israel did not have the protection of the US then the UN and NATO would now be doing to Israel what Israel has done to Lebanon and Palestine. Except for the NATO and UN forces would not be executing civilians.
Gogo I am absolutely astounded that you have the arrogance to dismiss what someone (markW) has seen with his own eyes.
I suppose the fact he was born and brought up with the crimes the Israeli state committed in Lebanon (which is acknowledged worldwide) doesnt count because he isnt Israeli therefor must be a lebanese Terrorist?
Its my oppinion that after claiming to be the most hated race on earth the Jews in Israel are doing a very good job of making sure this statement is true.
What interests me now is how the Israelis would react if the US suddenly decided it had to target the terrorism in Israel. I have a feeling that all hell would break loose and the situation would need NATO troops to stop the palestinians and every other neighbouring country from exacting their revenge.
Maybe the whole situation needs stronger demands, tell the palenstinians any more attacks on Israel Nato will accupy their land for a while. The issue the same threat to Israel. Its my beleif that Israel would be occupied first.
Originally posted by Gogogo
[B]Xaccers: IDF actions cannot be regarded as terrorist and it is offensive to suggest this. Everyone regrets accidental civilian deaths and measures are usually taken to investigate errors.
interesting that those 'investigations' have NEVER found an israeli soldier guilty of causing wrongful death....all the more interesting as when there is video footage, or other cast iron proof of wrong doing of israeli soldiers shooting innocent palastinians - and journalists and peace activists - that evidence is deemed 'inadmissable', and thet soldier(s) walk free....
what this means in effect is that the israeli soldiers are above the law. They know, and the palestinian people know, that they can do what they like without punishment, now imagine the fear that breeds amongs the people that those soldiers are forcebly guarding...- how is that different form the terrorists?
:(
Just bookmarking so to speak.
Will go back to lurking.
Incog.
Mark W. Prime Minister Sharon is doing his best to get the peace process underway, he is acting sincerely to put peace at the top of the agenda.
Two years have past since the Palestinian violence erupted in September 2000, some eight weeks after yasser arafat rejected the generous offers made by former Israeli PM Ehud Barak at the Camp David Summit, and chose violence over peace. In the past two years, the terror against Israelis has been of a kind and severity unknown in Israel. Palestinian terrorists have carried out over 6,600 terror attacks since September 2000, killing more than 620 Israeli children, women and men (80% of whom have been non-combatants and wounding over 4,500. The equivalent number in UK terms would be over 6,200 dead and 45,000 injured. There has been a clear effort by Palestinian terrorists to target unarmed, innocent civilians on the streets, on buses, in homes, at pizzerias and cafÃÃ*’©s, at a university campus and a Passover Seder. The impact of the terror on Israeli lives is unimaginable.
You can rolleyes as much as you wish, we here are concerned about peace now. What are you are prepared to do to achieve peace now that is the issue that matters to people in the region.
Now, it's time to go to work.
:eek:
Originally posted by Gogogo
In the past two years, the terror against Israelis has been of a kind and severity unknown in Israel. Palestinian terrorists have carried out over 6,600 terror attacks since September 2000, killing more than 620 Israeli children, women and men (80% of whom have been non-combatants and wounding over 4,500. The equivalent number in UK terms would be over 6,200 dead and 45,000 injured. There has been a clear effort by Palestinian terrorists to target unarmed, innocent civilians on the streets, on buses, in homes, at pizzerias and cafÃÃ*’©s, at a university campus and a Passover Seder. The impact of the terror on Israeli lives is unimaginable.
bah humbug...read my earlier posts :-
since the second uprising there have been between 2,386 and 2,532 palestinian deaths (and that does NOT include those killed whilst engaged in military action againsed israelies , and between 23,094 and 41,000 + injuries
as opposed to 742 to 806 israeli deaths, and 5,586 injuries
you'll notice ive been more generous than you about the israeli figures, but that still leaves over 3 times as many innocent palastinian deaths at the hands of the IDF, with their terror tactics, bulldozing residential properties, and forcefull suppression....
*edit*
civilian deaths are bad, whatever side they are on. israelies die by terrorist action. 3 times as many palastinians die due to state sponsored action......you tell me which one is worse?
*edit 2*
or to put it another way.
800 odd Israeli civilians die from suicide bombings - something they cant guard or fight againsed. thats 'terrorism'
2000 palastinians civilians die from tanks, helicopter gunships and fighter jets - something they cant guard or fight againsed. but thats called (in your words gogo) 'whatever measures are needed'
care to explain what the difference is?
TigaSefi
18-08-2003, 12:33
And we go round in circles again which is precisely the problem. Everyone bandies figures and past events and no one drops it so we go in circles. For me it is very difficult to see an end to this in the next 5-10 years. Everyone says the next generation will put an end to it cos tomorrow's children will want peace etc. which is true to an extent. On the Israeli sides. From what I know of the school curriculum in Israel, it is taught about being fair and peace. And you do a survey of young ppl in Israel today, most will be saying end to fighting. Barak and Rabin before him understood this and offered Arafat 95% of what they wanted and yet they rejected the chance of getting out of this vicious circle.
Palestinians kids are instead taught mantra about destroying Israel and its people, sent to camps at the ages of 10 and upwards and taught how to clean and fire guns and how to "fight" in the war against Israel and told that Suicide bombing is the ultimate in martyrdom. They ain't in the front line on the gaza strip and west bank just to kick a football. It Provocation of the highest degree.
If Mark W was thrown stones all day long and not fight back then I have the utmost respect for him. I'd get ****ed off and would do something about it. Normally I'd give a kid a clip around the ear but walking to them means running the gauntlet of snipers from palestinians.
So what the solution ?
timewarrior2001
18-08-2003, 13:21
The solution is not to band all palestinians together. Yes there are extremists, just as theres extremist israeli's.
The main gripe poeple have atm is the actions of the israeli government.
Originally posted by Mark W
bah humbug...read my earlier posts :-
Mark W. Every post I've made has mentioned peace, not once have you shown any genuine concern for peace in the region.
One can only assume that you want war to continue. But this is not what people in the region want, everyone except palestinian terrorists has had enough of war.
I ask once more what will YOU do to encourage PEACE in the region?
This is the issue that matters.
:eek:
timewarrior2001
18-08-2003, 15:33
Originally posted by Gogogo
But this is uenot what people in the region want, everyone except palestinian terrorists has had enough of war.
You forgot to mention that the Israeli gov obviously doesnt want peace, why else would it break the ceasefire huh?
And if the Israelis want peace so much why are they not petitioning the gov, protesting at its tactics?
TigaSefi
18-08-2003, 16:00
Originally posted by timewarrior2001
You forgot to mention that the Israeli gov obviously doesnt want peace, why else would it break the ceasefire huh?
And if the Israelis want peace so much why are they not petitioning the gov, protesting at its tactics?
I have lived there for 4 years and I have to say THEY do protest for peace, they DO protest that the government should be more pro active in stopping the circle of violence however it doesn't not get reported on. They do have concerts/protests/marches for peace. These are normally arranged by the young generation who try and get out of Army Service. As they are the younger generation the gov't only pays lip service to them. Why don't the older generation protests ? I don't know.
Originally posted by Gogogo
Mark W. Every post I've made has mentioned peace, not once have you shown any genuine concern for peace in the region.
One can only assume that you want war to continue. But this is not what people in the region want, everyone except palestinian terrorists has had enough of war.
I ask once more what will YOU do to encourage PEACE in the region?
This is the issue that matters.
yes, you do mention peace - but seem to think that the israeli govt are doing all they can and its all the palestinians fault there isnt any....
as has been said, it was those 'palestinian terrorists' that offered the ceasefire in the first place. a ceasefire the israeli govt/IDF said they were not interested in, and subsequentially broke by carrying out a hamfisted assassination.
what needs to be done? the israeli's said they would not do anything till there was a stop in the suicide bombings.
The militia groups unanimously agreed to this (eventually), and stood by it. Did israel embrace this? no. they publicly said that didnt matter a damn and would still carry out attacks on the militia groups - hardly constructive??
so. once the militia groups have proved they are willing to give peace a go - and they HAVE, the next step is for the israeli govt to move out of palestinian cities, stop building that bloody fence and stop building settlements on palestinian land.
Thats not far fetched. thats part of the peace plan that was put forward, the plan BOTH sides agreed to. The militia groups stood by their end of the bargain. Its seems the israeli's are unwilling to stand by theirs....
oh, and TigaSefi is right. I dont have a problem with the israeli people as such, as it seems ALOT are horrified by their govt's flat refusal to do anything constructive towards peace.
Sadly the govt is run by a man wanted for war crimes againsed palestinians, who built his military career on 'incidents' non compliant with the geneva convention againsed arabs, and who places more importance on the fanatical few israelis who feel that they have a right to do what they want in palestinian land (ie build settlements) as its their 'god given right' to do so.
Personally, i feel the US should stop the military aid to israel, and have the UN place peacekeepers in the country....only then will both sides get a fair deal.....
Originally posted by timewarrior2001
You forgot to mention that the Israeli gov obviously doesnt want peace, why else would it break the ceasefire huh?
And if the Israelis want peace so much why are they not petitioning the gov, protesting at its tactics?
See:
Israel's committment to peace (http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0nmy0)
Israel wants peace and is committed to peace.
Israel has proposed the handover of control of further West Bank towns to the Palestinian leadership. Israel now looks to the Palestinian Authority to carry out its commitments under the roadmap and to begin the dismantlement of the terror infrastructure which is a threat and an obstacle towards peace.
So timewarrior2001, how do you see the peace process developing, what can you do to help the region find peace.
:eek:
Originally posted by Gogogo
See:
Israel's committment to peace (http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0nmy0)
Israel wants peace and is committed to peace.
go take a look at the BNP's website - whats written there makes them look like veritable angels.
I suggest that you place more faith in what people DO than what they SAY....
as for the israeli's offering to hand over towns - well, gee whizz.....
they occupy cities they had no right to occupy, and then offer them back as though they are doing the Authority a favour :rolleyes:
if you look HERE (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3158881.stm) you'll see that its been delayed, as the IDF have refused to dismantle checkpoint(s) outside the cities. this goes againsed the agreement made earlier between Palestinian security chief Dahlan and Israeli Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz
but then the israeli's are good at going back on their word.
as an aside, try reading this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3158881.stm) about the views of jewish settlers living on palestinian land....
some extracts :-
According to a recent survey of settlers by the Jerusalem-based Harry S Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace, nearly 40% of Israelis in the West Bank and Gaza Strip live there out of a belief in a divinely ordained mission to inhabit the land.
We don't feel threatened by the roadmap," he said. "I believe this land is for us and I start from the Bible.
"We don't worry about what President Bush or Tony Blair says, for sure. We just have to continue living here and strengthening the place. That's the reality....
I think that it is THESE people who are one of the main obstacles of peace....
historically Great Britain ruled north america, australia and india, we dont anymore. we cant simply demand it again as a right just because once they were ours, so how can they?
Originally posted by Mark W
go take a look at the BNP's website - whats written there makes them look like veritable angels.
Do not insult me with such references. Insults are all that you are left with.
I can only assume that you favour war in middle east and not peace.
End of dialouge.
Originally posted by Gogogo
Do not insult me with such references. Insults are all that you are left with.
I can only assume that you favour war in middle east and not peace.
End of dialouge.
lol, it wasnt meant as an insult - simply highlighting that people will say things they know want to be heard....
yes, i DO want peace, but not at the cost of the palestinian people becoming cowed, frightened and second class citizens in their own land. If they have to fight to stop that from happening, then so be it.
Sometimes you have to fight for want you belive in, and what is rightfully yours....
Originally posted by Gogogo
Xaccers: IDF actions cannot be regarded as terrorist and it is offensive to suggest this. Everyone regrets accidental civilian deaths and measures are usually taken to investigate errors. But frankly, when palestinian terrorists hide amongst civilian population what can Israel do? The Palestinian Authority must act but doesn't. Israel must respond hunt down the palestinian terrorists and deal with them.
The Israeli gov spokesperson that was interviewed on Radio 4 had no remorse.
His attitude was they were palestinian children who were in the way of the target, so what if they died? :mad:
Now most countries with terrorism problems, like the UK, try to keep the moral high ground, going after the terrorists and arresting them whenever possible.
From what I have been told by my Israeli friends, and what I have seen on the news (which is not objective I know, but that doesn't mean it's lies), the IDF are more than willing to kill a few civilians so long as they are palestinians and it gets their target in the end. The argument seems to be something like "the target has killed 40 Israelis, so 5 palestinians killed to get to the target is a small price".
As for demanding that the palestinians sort out the terrorists, that's a bit hard when the next day you take out their infrastructure and ability to do so.
timewarrior2001
20-08-2003, 12:23
Originally posted by Gogogo
So timewarrior2001, how do you see the peace process developing, what can you do to help the region find peace.
All I can do to help peace in the middle east is to help keep pressure on Israel to keep to the agreements it signs.
If any country breaks agreement like Israel does then repercussions happen.
I could and I probably will start writting lieeters to my local MP demanding the british governemnt do more to stop Israeli attacks on innocent women and children by making Israel stick to its treaties etc. The Israeli Gov has taken the p*ss out of the UN for far too long now and its time somehting was done about it.
Same goes for the palistinians if they continue to attack Israel even in retaliation then they shall suffer the same consequences.
As far as I am concerned Israel has proven itself to be an agressor and if the Prime minister is wanted for war crimes he should be arrested by the UN and made to stand trail in a neutral country.
TigaSefi
20-08-2003, 14:05
well another bomb gone off, scores of Israelis killed and Israelis shut the borders, palestinians complains, we get the terrorists, border open, suicide bomb, ad infinitum......
I notice that the palestinians have killed 5 more Israeli children (amongst others):(
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.