Would you pay £37.99 for this

[Nidge]

Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:00:23 UTC
1st 128K took 8734 ms = 15007 Bytes/sec = approx 125 kbits/sec
2nd 128K took 8813 ms = 14873 Bytes/sec = approx 124 kbits/sec
3rd 128K took 8765 ms = 14954 Bytes/sec = approx 124 kbits/sec
4th 128K took 8782 ms = 14925 Bytes/sec = approx 124 kbits/sec


I think NTL are taking the P*SS, supposed to be upgraded to 1.5meg it was ok on Wednesday but yesterday and today it's been like dail up. If I'm paying £37 for 1.5 meg I want 1.5 meg all the time not 128.

[Electrolyte01]

I would ring up TS to get that sorted before they actually charge you £37 :erm:

[DeadKenny]

Mine's totally screwed today. I'm trying to access my server from work and it's crawling along at pathetic speeds and seems to be dropping packets all over the place. Not sure where the fault lies, so maybe someone can analyse these (i.e. is this my server or somewhere on the router, and can you tell from traceroutes and pings?)...

Traceroute from the home to work...

traceroute to 194.201.207.254 (194.201.207.254), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
1 tjmoore.co.uk (192.168.0.1) 0.658 ms 0.326 ms 0.306 ms
2 10.136.63.254 (10.136.63.254) 55.946 ms 7.289 ms 7.802 ms
3 glfd-t2cam1-a-v108.inet.ntl.com (80.4.30.53) 8.687 ms 8.475 ms 23.131 ms
4 glfd-t2core-a-ge-wan61.inet.ntl.com (62.254.207.37) 8.836 ms 8.159 ms *
5 * * *
6 tele-ic-1-so-100-0.inet.ntl.com (62.253.185.78) 9.801 ms 10.645 ms 18.623 ms
7 ge3-0.br1.lnd6.gbb.uk.uu.net (195.66.224.16) 13.901 ms 10.000 ms *
8 srp4-0.cr1.lnd6.uk.gbb.uu.net (158.43.194.233) 10.046 ms 9.798 ms 9.930 ms
9 * pos1-0.cr1.rea2.gbb.uk.uu.net (158.43.253.141) 11.511 ms *
10 158.43.164.14 (158.43.164.14) 13.862 ms 11.136 ms 11.504 ms
11 194.201.207.254 (194.201.207.254) 23.491 ms 18.896 ms *



Traceroute from work to home

Tracing route to www.tjmoore.co.uk [82.10.70.244]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 2 ms 2 ms 2 ms 194.201.207.254
2 7 ms 7 ms 6 ms gw13.rea2.gbb.uk.uu.net [158.43.167.14]
3 7 ms 6 ms 7 ms fe6-2.cr1.rea2.gbb.uk.uu.net [158.43.164.65]
4 9 ms 8 ms 9 ms pos3-0.cr1.lnd8.gbb.uk.uu.net [158.43.253.142]
5 13 ms 12 ms 8 ms srp1-0.br1.lnd8.gbb.uk.uu.net [158.43.189.1]
6 14 ms 10 ms 16 ms 195.66.226.23
7 40 ms 25 ms 17 ms gfd-bb-b-so-320-0.inet.ntl.com [62.253.185.73]
8 24 ms 12 ms 10 ms glfd-t2core-b-pos31.inet.ntl.com [62.253.185.30]

9 10 ms 10 ms 13 ms glfd-t2cam1-b-ge-wan31.inet.ntl.com [62.254.207.166]
10 148 ms 120 ms 36 ms glfd-woki-ubr-2-ge20.inet.ntl.com [80.4.30.182]
11 * 44 ms 39 ms cpc2-woki2-6-0-cust244.glfd.cable.ntl.com [82.10.70.244]


ping to home

Pinging www.tjmoore.co.uk [82.10.70.244] with 32 bytes of data

Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=17ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=18ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=18ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=17ms TTL=54
Request timed out.
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=17ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=22ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=23ms TTL=54
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=17ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=34ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=31ms TTL=54
Request timed out.
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=16ms TTL=54
Request timed out.
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=18ms TTL=54
Request timed out.
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=17ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=20ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=18ms TTL=54
Request timed out.
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=18ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=18ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=22ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=19ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=17ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=20ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=33ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=20ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=18ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=17ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=18ms TTL=54
Request timed out.
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=16ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=18ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=17ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=17ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=17ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=17ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=33ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=19ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=28ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=18ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=18ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=21ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=22ms TTL=54
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=20ms TTL=54
Request timed out.
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=20ms TTL=54
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Reply from 82.10.70.244: bytes=32 time=22ms TTL=54

Ping statistics for 82.10.70.244:
Packets: Sent = 53, Received = 42, Lost = 11 (20% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 16ms, Maximum = 34ms, Average = 20ms

[orangebird]

Have you called CS?

[DeadKenny]

Have you called CS?

Not yet, I need to establish first if it's a fault in my server or with NTL.

Strangely my server was "down" yesterday around the same time in the morning and fixed itself later and I got a new IP address. I don't think the cable modem is rebooting though, but I can't check until I get home tonight.


Edit: I've rebooted the router (which is sometimes the cause of my problems), but not much difference. The main problem appears to be packet loss. Can't call them now, it will have to wait, but would a call centre person have a clue about packet loss anyway? I don't want them to just shrug and send out an engineer at my expense.

[Chris W]

Not yet, I need to establish first if it's a fault in my server or with NTL.

Strangely my server was "down" yesterday around the same time in the morning and fixed itself later and I got a new IP address. I don't think the cable modem is rebooting though, but I can't check until I get home tonight.


Edit: I've rebooted the router (which is sometimes the cause of my problems), but not much difference. The main problem appears to be packet loss. Can't call them now, it will have to wait, but would a call centre person have a clue about packet loss anyway? I don't want them to just shrug and send out an engineer at my expense.

technical support "call centre" people do know about packet loss... we are not all the "phone monkeys" that some people think we are....

i would suggest that you ring t/s today because it is harmony upgrade time at the weekend so limited support until wednesday!

MB

[MatTman]

actually i think a better question should be..

"would you pay for 1.5mb's with a lousy 1gb a day cap which costs more than its nearest competators"..

[DeadKenny]

Update on my problems, now I've had a bit more time to check it out. It's pretty much confirmed it's a problem between the UBR and my house.

Ping's from my PC to my router or cable modem work great with 100% getting through. Pings to the UBR fail at between 10 - 20% of the time.

Though performance is better than it was a couple of days ago.

I've done a line test with broabandreports and here are the results...

http://www.broadbandreports.com/quality/nil/1493208



Speaking to an ntl person who IM'd me (appologies that I don't know which user that is here:)), it would seem that it's a power level problem ("groan... not again" I say to myself :(). My upstream is right on the limit, though it has been pretty much since day one of getting the thing. Apparently when it's like this you can get packet loss everytime the modem tries to adjust it's power.

The packet loss is causing intermittent browsing, though the modem doesn't reboot. Basically some requests can stall until refreshed, and this means on most sites I have to use the refresh button a lot or click on links twice to get a response.

I've tried rebooting the modem, the router, PCs and web server, with no effect. I've unscrewed and refixed the coax on the modem and rebooted and no effect.



P.S. A short bit of history...

My upstream power level has always been around the high 50's, often hitting 58, however a while back now I had major problems with the modem failing to lock on the upstream and rebooting frequently. This went on for months, often with days "down" at a time. Calling NTL was no use (40 minute waits in queues, they send engineers and nothing gets fixed, and so on), but Frank and co at nthellworld sorted me out (it had taken a year to fix it effectively by this time). Since then it's been going fine though the upstream still hovers between 55 and 58.

Then the other day I get this reboot, and a new IP address and things start going wrong. I've noticed too that the UBR IP address is totally different (it's now a 10.x.x.x address). Does this mean the UBR has been upgraded and could this mean the whole power level business is up the creek and anyone connected to it may need readjusting again?

mini-rant...

I should point out that I'm never happy about getting engineers out as a) it costs me a lot of money to take a day off work, b) I've had extreme problems before with engineers not turning up (at all, or on time), c) and then there's the hassle of my 2nd phone line installation being screwed up on 4 separate occasions. I've made formal complaints about this and got little other than a months refund and a "sorry, but tough" kind of appology in regards to what it costs to wait in for people who don't turn up and wasted time.

So it's important to understand that I want to be absolutely sure there's a real fault with *my* equipment that needs me to take time off work, and not a problem somewhere else. I know this is a kind of catch 22 as it's difficult to know where the problem is without checking the customer's end first, but you can understand how difficult it is for some of us to keep taking time off to have NTL investigate the problem, and more frustrating when it turns out to be a fault elsewhere.

End of mini-rant there ;). I don't want to turn this into a moaning session, and the problems of the past are well in the past now, just something to note that's all, and I'm in no way having a go at anyone here.


Not sure where I'll go with this next, but as no one will be about until next week, I'll just keep an eye on it over the weekend and hope it sorts itself out. It would be interesting to find out if anyone else in the area (GU22, Woking), has a problem though.


update: Upstream power has shifted to 56 now and suddenly I get no packet loss, and things speed up :). Hmm, so it's definitely when it goes over 58 that it happens. I wonder if it will stay at 56, or is this just a late evening dip as people log off?

P.S. other info...

Downstream SNR: 34 dB
Downstream power: 0 dBmV
Upstream power: 56 dBmV (was 58)

Also, when my modem first rebooted a few days back, I was getting a lot of "NO FEC lock" in the log.

[carlingman]

Update on my problems, now I've had a bit more time to check it out. It's pretty much confirmed it's a problem between the UBR and my house.

Ping's from my PC to my router or cable modem work great with 100% getting through. Pings to the UBR fail at between 10 - 20% of the time.

Though performance is better than it was a couple of days ago.

I've done a line test with broabandreports and here are the results...

http://www.broadbandreports.com/quality/nil/1493208



Speaking to an ntl person who IM'd me (appologies that I don't know which user that is here:)), it would seem that it's a power level problem ("groan... not again" I say to myself :(). My upstream is right on the limit, though it has been pretty much since day one of getting the thing. Apparently when it's like this you can get packet loss everytime the modem tries to adjust it's power.

The packet loss is causing intermittent browsing, though the modem doesn't reboot. Basically some requests can stall until refreshed, and this means on most sites I have to use the refresh button a lot or click on links twice to get a response.

I've tried rebooting the modem, the router, PCs and web server, with no effect. I've unscrewed and refixed the coax on the modem and rebooted and no effect.



P.S. A short bit of history...

My upstream power level has always been around the high 50's, often hitting 58, however a while back now I had major problems with the modem failing to lock on the upstream and rebooting frequently. This went on for months, often with days "down" at a time. Calling NTL was no use (40 minute waits in queues, they send engineers and nothing gets fixed, and so on), but Frank and co at nthellworld sorted me out (it had taken a year to fix it effectively by this time). Since then it's been going fine though the upstream still hovers between 55 and 58.

Then the other day I get this reboot, and a new IP address and things start going wrong. I've noticed too that the UBR IP address is totally different (it's now a 10.x.x.x address). Does this mean the UBR has been upgraded and could this mean the whole power level business is up the creek and anyone connected to it may need readjusting again?

mini-rant...

I should point out that I'm never happy about getting engineers out as a) it costs me a lot of money to take a day off work, b) I've had extreme problems before with engineers not turning up (at all, or on time), c) and then there's the hassle of my 2nd phone line installation being screwed up on 4 separate occasions. I've made formal complaints about this and got little other than a months refund and a "sorry, but tough" kind of appology in regards to what it costs to wait in for people who don't turn up and wasted time.

So it's important to understand that I want to be absolutely sure there's a real fault with *my* equipment that needs me to take time off work, and not a problem somewhere else. I know this is a kind of catch 22 as it's difficult to know where the problem is without checking the customer's end first, but you can understand how difficult it is for some of us to keep taking time off to have NTL investigate the problem, and more frustrating when it turns out to be a fault elsewhere.

End of mini-rant there ;). I don't want to turn this into a moaning session, and the problems of the past are well in the past now, just something to note that's all, and I'm in no way having a go at anyone here.


Not sure where I'll go with this next, but as no one will be about until next week, I'll just keep an eye on it over the weekend and hope it sorts itself out. It would be interesting to find out if anyone else in the area (GU22, Woking), has a problem though.


update: Upstream power has shifted to 56 now and suddenly I get no packet loss, and things speed up :). Hmm, so it's definitely when it goes over 58 that it happens. I wonder if it will stay at 56, or is this just a late evening dip as people log off?

P.S. other info...

Downstream SNR: 34 dB
Downstream power: 0 dBmV
Upstream power: 56 dBmV (was 58)

Also, when my modem first rebooted a few days back, I was getting a lot of "NO FEC lock" in the log.
Hi deadkenny,

You must win the award for perseverance with NTL as I recall a lot of your threads for the old days over at .com

Cant offer much advice on the above but FEC relates to Forward Error Connection.

However if you suspect packet loss what do the results of dos prompt below show.

Open up a dos prompt and type in netstat †“s †“p tcp

That should give you an idea of how many packets are being lost and having to be re transmitted to pin point the problem a little more.

Strange though as normally FEC Errors and packet loss are usually caused by poor downstream rather than fluctuauting upstream levels.

Im guessing from your knowledge you have it spot on though as fluctuating upstreams are normally a sign of a bad connection from you to the UBR or knackered AMP on their network.

Hope you get it sorted soon.

:D

[Paul]

Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:00:23 UTC
1st 128K took 8734 ms = 15007 Bytes/sec = approx 125 kbits/sec
2nd 128K took 8813 ms = 14873 Bytes/sec = approx 124 kbits/sec
3rd 128K took 8765 ms = 14954 Bytes/sec = approx 124 kbits/sec
4th 128K took 8782 ms = 14925 Bytes/sec = approx 124 kbits/sec


I think NTL are taking the P*SS, supposed to be upgraded to 1.5meg it was ok on Wednesday but yesterday and today it's been like dail up. If I'm paying £37 for 1.5 meg I want 1.5 meg all the time not 128.
Would I pay £37.99 for that ? - well obviously not, but then you obviously have a fault which you have, of course, reported .... haven't you :erm:

[DeadKenny]

Hi deadkenny,

You must win the award for perseverance with NTL as I recall a lot of your threads for the old days over at .com

Yeah, on and off I've been ready to throw in the towel often but it's the whole hassle of applying for BT that put me off and then it did kind of get fixed for a long while :D.

Maybe this will just be a temporary glitch as the upstream has settled down again.

However if you suspect packet loss what do the results of dos prompt below show.

Open up a dos prompt and type in netstat †“s †“p tcp

That should give you an idea of how many packets are being lost and having to be re transmitted to pin point the problem a little more.


TCP Statistics for IPv4

Active Opens = 9071
Passive Opens = 4412
Failed Connection Attempts = 51
Reset Connections = 967
Current Connections = 18
Segments Received = 553585
Segments Sent = 513853
Segments Retransmitted = 3957


Not sure if that's over a whole session (while PC is running?), though for the last few hours things have settled down since the upstream powered dropped down to 56.


Strange though as normally FEC Errors and packet loss are usually caused by poor downstream rather than fluctuauting upstream levels.

Im guessing from your knowledge you have it spot on though as fluctuating upstreams are normally a sign of a bad connection from you to the UBR or knackered AMP on their network.

Yeah, it's always been upstream problems with me, though before it was with the upstream not even locking on or dropping and rebooting. This time around it's kind of a guess but I'm told it's probably upstream, plus pure downloads seem unaffected whereas requests for pages are affected and so is any transfer from my server.

[Nidge]

Would I pay £37.99 for that ? - well obviously not, but then you obviously have a fault which you have, of course, reported .... haven't you :erm:

Yep, still waiting for them to get back in touch with me.

[DeadKenny]

Hmm, this is suspect...

On the morning of Thursday August 26th between midnight and 5am:

Network resegmentation and load balancing work may result in a loss of service for a few hours in Woking, Mansfield, Warwick and the surrounding areas.

Bang on exactly when my problems started :(.

See this thread where others seem to be having problems since things got "resegmented"...

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/showthread.php?t=16470&page=4&pp=15