View Full Version : Another speed?
Can any 1 of the ntl techys here answer a question for me...
are ntl going to promte a new speed of 3 to 5Mb
reason i ask is that some 1 posted something on a forum i goto and he says that his m8 who also works for ntl told him this?
Ignition
25-08-2004, 01:46
Not as far as I know, but then I don't *need* to know these things so... :)
Where is this forum info? Also a CSR is highly unlikely to know about any product changes of this magnitude at a very early stage.
5Mbit would be problematic for a few reasons.
we can always live in hope that NTL will raise speeds, the outcome of that is a highly unlikely, purely for technical reasons (constraints)
IMHO ntl will be soon be bringing into play the pay as you surf sarga which we had in the start back in the dark 1p per min as more and more people push for faster connections what better way to recoupe losses than slap it on the faster greedy downloaders myself included i might add :)
Ignition
25-08-2004, 01:59
we can always live in hope that NTL will raise speeds, the outcome of that is a highly unlikely, purely for technical reasons (constraints)
Nope mostly commercial ones to be honest. If BT were doing a competitively priced 3 - 5Mbit service (ooo look hell freezing over!) ntl would be regardless of technical 'constraints' trust me ;)
In the present conditions due to the UK consumer's demand for near 100% performance all the time combined with no real download restrictions, as low a price as possible, and no contention a pay per GB downloaded model is probably the most likely course of events - note the wave of capping coming in on DSL products.
Nope mostly commercial ones to be honest. If BT were doing a competitively priced 3 - 5Mbit service (ooo look hell freezing over!) ntl would be regardless of technical 'constraints' trust me ;)
it could be done, if there were limits.....now i dont want limits, it cant surely be a bandwidth issue as a cost ?
Ignition
25-08-2004, 02:07
it could be done, if there were limits.....now i dont want limits, it cant surely be a bandwidth issue as a cost ?
Put 600 people on a uBR card, total downstream capcity roughly 27Mbit. Give 594 of them 1Mbit service, give 6 of them (who download all the bloody time, non-stop full whack queuing em up) 5Mbit services. Service for 594 will be affected by what 1% are doing.
This isn't by the way a theoretical thing it is quite plausible and the only reason it isn't seen on ntl's network is the download speed is relatively low.
There has to be a barrier somewhere between free usage and having a laugh sadly. UK users are relatively heavy compared to some, inspite of our rather low data rates.
EDIT: Oh and we show less tolerance than most to not getting 100% speed, as you yourself can attest to with your Internet Central experience ;)
EDIT: Oh and we show less tolerance than most to not getting 100% speed, as you yourself can attest to with your Internet Central experience ;)
well....im not tolerating 600k to 1.5mbit everyday, when it is supposed to be 2 mbit all the time, btw it was only at 1.5 mbit for very brief periods, i dont consider that to be an acceptable service.
however i still do not see the reason (apart from technical constraints) that a viable solution to faster speeds cannot be introduced.
from what i have see of your sharing example it is still a 'technical constraint' if you cannot deliver the bandwidth.
Ignition
25-08-2004, 04:08
Not so much technical as financial. The bandwidth could be delivered but without a good business case to deliver it it won't happen.
Basically in this field there's not that much that can't be done if enough money is thrown at it, however those with hands on the purse strings will expect a return on the cash, and in the case of throwing more bandwidth at a group for an unprofitable minority to benefit a line has to be drawn.
That 600k - 1.5Mbit that you describe is nearly the performance I'm seeing at the moment though I go down to 256k download. Isn't my ISPs fault perse is issues with their provider, however I'm very unhappy with it - mostly because I'm on a business service. You rightly expect to achive the full speed of your service regularly, to never achieve it isn't good, especially considering the relatively low speeds we have here.
Not so much technical as financial. The bandwidth could be delivered but without a good business case to deliver it it won't happen.
Basically in this field there's not that much that can't be done if enough money is thrown at it, however those with hands on the purse strings will expect a return on the cash, and in the case of throwing more bandwidth at a group for an unprofitable minority to benefit a line has to be drawn.
i can see your point my dear freind ;) but how can you expect a market to grow and be prosperous if your not 'pushing the envelope' interms of providing a faster service ? im sure demand for bandwidth will contine to surge ahead as more bandwidth intensive services come online day by day.....
this is how company's loose out in the future, there will always be a company out there willing to push a new product if the market is ready for it.
but sometimes you have to be the one to do it first, this is in NTL's case, im not talking about ridiculously high speeds, but maybe the next level 3mbit ?
the upgrades will be short term costs, am i right in assuming that NTL pay for the bandwidth they use ?
That 600k - 1.5Mbit that you describe is nearly the performance I'm seeing at the moment though I go down to 256k download. Isn't my ISPs fault perse is issues with their provider, however I'm very unhappy with it - mostly because I'm on a business service. You rightly expect to achive the full speed of your service regularly, to never achieve it isn't good, especially considering the relatively low speeds we have here.
since 2001, when i joined the broadband service, i have had 100% speeds, i expect near to that with other isp's, not below half the rated speed, you should be getting 60% of the time :disturbd:
Ignition
25-08-2004, 05:38
i can see your point my dear freind ;) but how can you expect a market to grow and be prosperous if your not 'pushing the envelope' interms of providing a faster service ? im sure demand for bandwidth will contine to surge ahead as more bandwidth intensive services come online day by day.....
Indeed Kroneh I absolutely agree with you :) However at the moment price is the main thing for most people so people are slurping up the 300k service as it's quicker than dialup and not much more expensive. The potentially £50 or so a month for 3Mbps may not be as pleasant.
this is how company's loose out in the future, there will always be a company out there willing to push a new product if the market is ready for it.
but sometimes you have to be the one to do it first, this is in NTL's case, im not talking about ridiculously high speeds, but maybe the next level 3mbit ?
The uptake of 1Mbit / 1.5Mbit is at the moment very low, in low single fingers % of total customer base. I would guess that the biggest product is now the 300k service. Simply most people are interested more in price than in how fast it is. For the average customer 300k is more than good enough and most can't justify the expense of higher. (Until they discover P2P / FTP / binary usenet obviously!) Simply - if people want the higher speeds they need to be prepared to pay for them, and right now the evidence says they aren't. BT also aren't interested in pushing the speed envelope either - they've been on 2Mbit down 256k up as an absolute max since the beginning of ADSL. (Note for smart arses I said A DSL not SDSL).
the upgrades will be short term costs, am i right in assuming that NTL pay for the bandwidth they use ?
Some but not all, there's also peering where ISPs agree to discount charges to each other for carrying traffic or not charge each other at all.
since 2001, when i joined the broadband service, i have had 100% speeds, i expect near to that with other isp's, not below half the rated speed, you should be getting 60% of the time :disturbd:
Where would you draw the line tho Kroneh, if NTL gave you 3Mbit would you be happy only achieving 2Mbit at peak times? Some people believe it's a leased line, these are the same people who leave P2P apps on all the time, usually stuff like kazaa, and think it's their absolute duty to download as much as possible all the time because 'They are paying for it.'. Where do you draw the line between acceptable performance for a shared service and giving the impression of no contention, the price paid for this is innovation to be honest.
FWIW I'm a massive advocate of higher speeds, however in this case I am, necessarily, playing devil's advocate. If people want the speeds they need to show demand, the applications are SLOWLY but surely arriving to push this forward, especially in the upstream direction, however those wanting more upstream to improve their share ratio on P2P apps or host the latest leet warez are I suspect going to be disappointed.
Yes this ISPs feed isn't good, however I'm moving to another one that will supply the 100% speeds that I should get at the contention ratio.
The uptake of 1Mbit / 1.5Mbit is at the moment very low, in low single fingers % of total customer base. I would guess that the biggest product is now the 300k service. Simply most people are interested more in price than in how fast it is. For the average customer 300k is more than good enough and most can't justify the expense of higher. (Until they discover P2P / FTP / binary usenet obviously!) Simply - if people want the higher speeds they need to be prepared to pay for them, and right now the evidence says they aren't. BT also aren't interested in pushing the speed envelope either - they've been on 2Mbit down 256k up as an absolute max since the beginning of ADSL. (Note for smart arses I said A DSL not SDSL).Does it cost ntl anything much to impliment higher speeds for those who want them/are willing to pay?
..and how do they know if people are /aren't willing to pay for higher speeds if they don't offer them?
Dont Telewest right now offer 3mbit/256 for i dont know - £50 a month or something? Do the very same telewest users on 3mbit have to worry about a CAP impossed on even there top end service? (sorry to mention that ugly word CAP but it fits in with me bit im saying).
You mentioned speeds and what is good, well lets say im on 750 right, now max is what 92KB/Sec - if my download comes along at 70 say, im not on the phone like then and there complaining, if the speed was always this for weeks on end then yet i would be.
Funny though, its the high speed users, the tiny percent as you said who are more lightly do cause problems that a 300k one, correct yes? If a general person who is checking the web etc gets a 300 connection then why would he need any more? Once he has discovered reasons to download stupid amounts then of course he might well sign up for 1.5mbit to get them loverly jublly's faster.
Talking of 3mbit/5mbit/SDSL/Fibre etc - NTL have obiuosly proven there struggling now with the current technology, lets say SDSL becomes a lot cheaper and peole can pay £50 a month for 2mbit each way - how on earth will NTL be able to Match that? I guess simple answer is they cannot. Now the problem Im guessing is the last mile correct? But dont NTL Wire all the way to the home, so why at least for example could they not put ethernet (somehow) in there instead or even fibre - push things forward so to speak. instead of offering 1.5mbit/256 as there top speed with no room for anything, they could be offering 1/1mbit and so forth. By the way, USA do sell SDSL 2mbit for $160 a month so people SHARE the cost as it were, cos even at that price, still means 1mbit both ways for two people...
SMHarman
25-08-2004, 10:56
it could be done, if there were limits.....now i dont want limits, it cant surely be a bandwidth issue as a cost ?
It's the cost of bandwith to the home, not the core bandwidth across the global internet that is the problem, faster connections to the home mean more UBRs and more UBRs means more cost.
Faster connections do not pay an equivilant more for their speed due to competition. Look at the math (Jerrek RIP)
1x 1.5Mb makes £38 a months, the equivilant b/w could go to 5 300k ers at £17.99 a month a total of £90.
How much will you pay for 3Mb £50? So this is now the equivilant of 10 300k ers or 179.90 in revenue, make the mix more skewed to 750kers thats 4 of them at £25 a months or £100 vs £50.
Go to 5Mb at how much £80? Compare to 3 1.5Mb and 2 300k still vs £150.
I would guess that the biggest product is now the 300k service.
Perfectly correct. The vast majority of customers seem to rate always on above download speed. My Mum, who's the miner's canary for me on this, is sending photos of grandchildren around the place for which her 128k (Telewest 750k) upload is beginning to creak. However, she's still FAR more likely to ring me up and complain (she holds me responsible for all IT outages in the world ever, I even get forwarded mail from her mates) if her cable goes down rather than if it seems slow downloading. Taking a few minutes to send or receive an email doesn't worry her, it's gone when she presses 'Send' and it's there when Mail goes 'ping' as far as she's concerned. If the UK Rail website isn't there or the Sporting Life racing pages or something she'll notice, though.
Ramrod - it costs a flipping fortune to upgrade speeds, new equipment for capacity upgrades, people's time from other teams, overtime for night work, engineer visits to sites and homes, swapping Pace boxes out. Not a cheap proposition.
The comfort is that it would almost certainly cost BT more (more suppliers, more different modems to support not all of which are BT-owned or supplied). This is presumably why there haven't been any higher speeds launched on BT supplied DSL for a while (1Mb and 2Mb have been around for a while). Niche suppliers like Bulldog beat ntl and BT for speed on this, fewer customers, their own network, no wholesaling.
Ramrod - it costs a flipping fortune to upgrade speeds, new equipment for capacity upgrades, people's time from other teams, overtime for night work, engineer visits to sites and homes, swapping Pace boxes out. Not a cheap proposition.That explains that then. Ta m8 :tu: :)
....I would still be willing to pay £50 for 3mb though :dunce: :D
SMHarman
25-08-2004, 11:33
That explains that then. Ta m8 :tu: :)
....I would still be willing to pay £50 for 3mb though :dunce: :D
But see my post (14) for the disincentive for them to do that though.
Your £50 or 10 customers £17.99. I know which I would prefer.
On a similar topic, whats the max capacity the new STBs can handle?
I know the old Pace are being swapped cos of possible problems with 1.5 from 1meg.
So if we all had the latest modem and stb would it need say all new hardware everywhere, to go to 2meg?
Or is 1.5 the limit on the NTL hardware or are there other reasons?
Just wondered why we got 1.5 and not 2.
And no i,m not unhappy with the 1.5 now its been fixed.
10Mb through the Ethernet port I think is the limit. The modem itself is just like any Samsung SACM apparently, such as the business ones.
But see my post (14) for the disincentive for them to do that though.
Your £50 or 10 customers £17.99. I know which I would prefer.Hmm this dont fit in though, why provide 750 and 1.5mbit then?
Let do the sums:
1 x 300 = loads of people on UBR (i think) and gets £17.99 a month
1 x 750 24.99 - starting to loose some money now and can fit 2 1/2 300 users
1 x 1.5mit a whopping 5 300k users = £89 a month vs £37.99
How do Telewest make money as they offer 3mbit and use if im not mistaken the same kit right? WHy not follow Telewest lead on this, it makes sense as it claws back money. You have speed 300, 750, 1.5mbit and 3mbit, you charge one price for CM only (higher price) and if they take out TV and Phone then it comes down.
As with anything in the world, something is only worth what people will pay for it. At the moment i agree you have certain choices depending on where you live. You can have CM as above, depending on TW or NTL top si 1.5/3mbit sort of thing. Now if you have ADSL you can go upto 2mbit and if your really special you can get Bulldog which goes uto 8mbit i think.
People still have the shopping Mall mentality - a bigger box is cheaper then buying 2 small ones, of course there is a marketing reeason for this as more you have the longer it will be before you try another brand. In throey then, 1.5mbit should be double the price of 750 as your getting twice the speed, but in reality is only £13 more not £24.99 more.
Im suprised that the 1.5mbit is so low a product as mentioned but then again with imposing limits why on earth would you pay loads of dosh for something that you could potentialy overuse and effect your entire area? Odd that if 1mbit before and also 600 caused such a problem with people damm well downlaoding and uploading all the time, how does uppping the speed make any sense at all?
Oh as a side note to first thing, if NTL only supplied 300k as there one and only connection then i would expect a LOT of people would switch, if they could to ADSL withouth a flicker of a eye lid - so that argument is null and void to be honest. As was said - if BT provided 3mbit, NTL would follow suit in a Heart beat, roll on Telewest/NTl Merger
SMHarman
25-08-2004, 12:53
The math is very simplistic, compare 5 x 300 to 2 x 750 you have 3 more SACMs and installs to do, 3 more bills to process DDs to collect over 100% chance more of one connection being knackered, etc etc.
There are also network sunk costs which means that these numbers are also not so valid.
NTL supply more than the 300k product as that is what the market dictates, if NTL held a monopoly on BB then they would probably only carry 300k until their regulator forced them to provide different speeds.
How to TW make money on 3Mb, do they? Or is it a loss leading Brand Marketing that they have the fastest widespread consumer BB product in the country.
You also have to factor in contention and other wonderful considerations that 5 300k users will probably use more bandwidth more of the time than 1 user on a 1.5Mb connection, so assuming normal usage patterns you can probably put two 1.5m customers where 5 300k customers go making the numbers add up again, however when both want to use their connection to the max all the time that therory falls over.
Ignition
25-08-2004, 13:55
Also guys think about those who would pay the £50 for a 3Mbit service, most of them are likely to really get their money's worth and then some. The 3 300k users that would provide the same income and the 4 300k users that would cover the extra network costs, etc, wouldn't consume anywhere near as much bandwidth. That's another reason to hold off from releasing the service.
Don't know what the average usage is on Telewest's 3Mbit service but would bet it's comfortably 150GB/month/user.
I wouldn't upgrade from 1.5 to 3mbit if it did come out, the upgrade wouldnt woo me that much, unless the upload was increased; i'd snap it up in an instant.
2mbit would be a nice round figure.
Only cos people are getting on my wick asking why its 1.5 and not 2 !!!
:)
scrotnig
25-08-2004, 15:45
I would concur that the most popular service is now the 300k. For the vast majority of customers I deal with, this is more than adequate for their needs.
There may well be a demand for higher speeds among the power users on this site...and in fact, I would include myself in that....but across the user base of ntl as a whole, there'd be little demand. There is not THAT much demand for the 1.5mb service really.
I think the reality is, it won't happen.
Ignition
27-08-2004, 00:41
I would concur that the most popular service is now the 300k. For the vast majority of customers I deal with, this is more than adequate for their needs.
There may well be a demand for higher speeds among the power users on this site...and in fact, I would include myself in that....but across the user base of ntl as a whole, there'd be little demand. There is not THAT much demand for the 1.5mb service really.
I think the reality is, it won't happen.
Hey never say never - I would very much like to keep this thread alive and in the public eye. If you are prepared to pay for it and want it in enough numbers it'll be provided. While people are happy with 750k and 300k it won't, simple as. You want to see 3Mbit with possibly a higher upload upgrade to 1.5Mbit!
peacedude2k4
27-08-2004, 00:46
Well I am on 1.5mb and unless your downloading massive amounts of stuff i dont really notice it and for £37.99 its a little much when i am now really paying for the status of the speed.
Considering downgrading to 750k and saving some cash for that new hifi i like
Where would you draw the line tho Kroneh, if NTL gave you 3Mbit would you be happy only achieving 2Mbit at peak times? Some people believe it's a leased line, these are the same people who leave P2P apps on all the time, usually stuff like kazaa, and think it's their absolute duty to download as much as possible all the time because 'They are paying for it.'. Where do you draw the line between acceptable performance for a shared service and giving the impression of no contention, the price paid for this is innovation to be honest.
the way NTL initially offered the service is i think what people are laying their premesis on, i would accept a service to be slightly slower at peak times if a 3mbit service was introduced, i have been very fortunate to be in an area with low usage of down and upstream, i know others have the misfortune of being on crowded ubr's or being on a relatively low user upstream and being hit with mass p2p clogging activties....
you pay for what you get, when i signed up for this service i was told my downloads can be faster, i can download music files and 'large' movie files, those were the old enticing leaflets.
FWIW I'm a massive advocate of higher speeds, however in this case I am, necessarily, playing devil's advocate. If people want the speeds they need to show demand, the applications are SLOWLY but surely arriving to push this forward, especially in the upstream direction, however those wanting more upstream to improve their share ratio on P2P apps or host the latest leet warez are I suspect going to be disappointed.
it is true that quite alot of people want more upstream speed, but p2p is here to stay, there are others out there who want to transfer files from home to remote servers and such so there is that fine balance aswell of trying to provide customers a good service while not trying to 'break the bank' so to speak.
Yes this ISPs feed isn't good, however I'm moving to another one that will supply the 100% speeds that I should get at the contention ratio.
unless you get hit again on the way in :disturbd:
my main concern is that broadband in this country should be 'high speed' unfortunately alot of the 'top brass' fail to realise the capabilitys of broadband as an educational tool :(
I have stated on quite a few occasions on this forum, and I'm also certain many others have, that I would be willing to put my money down for more bandwidth.
Lets just say for instance in relation to the 1.5mb service.
Bandwidth 1536/256 @ £37.99
NTL obviously can offer this and there must be a profit in running such a service at such a price.
So give me the chance of having this service.
Bandwidth 3072/512 @ £75.98
Now that doesnt break any mold for crazy low pricing - it still fits in with the model for the 1.5mb service but just a doubling of download and upload speed and a doubling of price. Maybe even go as far as adding another £20+ to the amount to make it an even £100/month and then offer a fully uncapped/unmetered service where I could be happy in the knowledge that poeple arent blaming such a terrible heavier user as me for affecting there internet (that as a note they arent using to its potential - which obviously NTL are happier with).
So NTL just get offering the service and I'll pay for it!!! I have my wallet ready and I'm sure it cannot be that difficult technically!
PS. If anyone at NTL wants to contact me to offer me this service as a trial to see if it is technically viable I'm all up for that and ok to pay the said amount to trial it too!! GIMME MOOOOORE :disturbd:
Makes me laugh really - a lot of people are still living in the 56k modem age - spend too long online and download too much and your a bad bad person. While I agree that we pay a small price for what we get, just what is the point of offering a service that is on 24/7 and can download at 180KB/Sec + yet if you use it too much then you are indeed effecting all the people within a 100 mil radius, you bad bad boy.
Now I personally dont P2P, I hate it in fact - but take a few games and straight away your in with a chance of been classed as a bad person. Lineage 2 - comes in at 1.3 GIG. The you go get the updates - god loads there. MIR3, another 1+ gig and then update that.
Question here really, do the same things get talked about to death on ADSL forums as they dont seem to have any caps, surely the technoloy is the same (or similar). Another question, if i was a business user and paid for the 1.5mbit line say (at stupid prices like they do) then surely its got to be connected to the same lines at the end of the day? thus me as a business user downloading/uploading 24/7 will effect people will it not?
Is it not possible to clump the heavy users on certain UBRS thus each effecting each other? We in Britain need to push forward not go feking backwards here.... damm 300k
Actually Just had a thought - Motorways - UK pants, rest of world Brill.
Public Transport - Uk "delays and slow", rest of world Prompt and on time.
Comms - SDSL, 10mbit, Fribe etc - us - still living in the 56k modem era by the sounds of it.
Basically we are always last, we dont inovate, we suffocate, you never know in 10 years time we might have 3mbit line but dont hold your breath eh!
I would concur that the most popular service is now the 300k. For the vast majority of customers I deal with, this is more than adequate for their needs.
There may well be a demand for higher speeds among the power users on this site...and in fact, I would include myself in that....but across the user base of ntl as a whole, there'd be little demand. There is not THAT much demand for the 1.5mb service really.
I think the reality is, it won't happen.
I honestly think a 3Meg service from NTL wont happen, but one from Telewest/NTL will do, If and when they merge, it wont be exactly good PR for the overtaking party not to normalise the products and services over time, that would include pricing, and of course, services.
I myself wouldnt mind 3Meg, however, I would much rather have a slower, more reliable service. (Like my 1.5meg Currently is, rock solid, mwahahahahahahahaahaha *Gets hit by rock*) ow, oh, and a price drop wouldnt go amiss, ieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee *runs
While me soap box is still out and warm, i just thought of some more stuff to add to this thread. Equipment - every day/week/month that goes buy better stuff comes out and get cheaper - the more you make and sell, the cheaper it is to produce. Now what does this mean? well a ISP like say NTL need Servers so the initial cost is high but should have paid for itself 5x over by now. The cables in the ground, there def not leasing them are they off some company. My point is basically once the infrastructure is in place, over a few years it start to make money for itself (NTL) but if they work close enough with the other ISP's then maybe they can keep the price artifically high, a scarce comminidty so to speak.
So lets take Bull dog's idea shall we - they sell and probably make most of there money by selling to business, now they allow us mere mortals to cream off the un-used bandwidth later on when the companies lock there doors for the night and is sitting un-used.
So on that idea, here is one that could work no problem in a lot of area's but of course not all. On the UBR not all of the bandwidth is used and probably a lot of the time maybe uses about 50% lets say (my guess, could be way off) - so why not allow or introduce variable bandwidth so they have products like 1.5mbit/256 but it can go as high as 3mbit/400 say as a guess *IF* there is bandwidth around, as soon as people start soaking up the bandwidth then it goes back down to your rate.
Not all people upload/download 24/7 and this idea would be good - what u all think?
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