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View Full Version : The controversy over the appointment of the suffragan Bishop of Reading


Theodoric
21-06-2003, 14:36
Extracts from 2 emails quoted in today's Guardian.

1) "If you disagree with the Bible then refrain from reading it."
Indeed, but as long as fundamentalist Christians insist on trying to force the rest of us to follow their beliefs, I retain the right to criticise the Bible. Fair enough, is it not?

2) "What a loving Father we have who would send his Son for my sins and all of mankind's."
The unspoken Evangelical subtext is that if you do not believe this, then the same loving father will arrange for you to be tortured for all eternity. Would any Evangelical care to argue that this is doctrinally incorrect?

matty4donna
21-06-2003, 14:40
I thinks its pretty pathetic that we should live in a world where equal oppurtunities cant be offered even by religion. The fact he is gay does not make him any better or worse then if he was not gay. I cant see the problem of appointing him.

Theodoric
21-06-2003, 14:45
Originally posted by matty4donna
I thinks its pretty pathetic that we should live in a world where equal oppurtunities cant be offered even by religion. The fact he is gay does not make him any better or worse then if he was not gay. I cant see the problem of appointing him.
A further quote is "If the church has the authority to bless homosexuality . . . then why not polygamy?" One of the main stirrers of this controversy is the Anglican Archbishop of Nigeria. I believe that polygamy is still a common occurrence in Nigeria. Would anyone care to supply some quotes from the Archbishop of Nigeria condemning polygamy in the same terms as he has comdemned homosexuality?

poolking
22-06-2003, 14:22
Who cares about his sexual orientation as long as he is doing his job right, he wouldn't have been appointed otherwise.

Russ
22-06-2003, 14:34
The controversy should only be if the Bishop consumates his relationship with his.....other half. He claims to be celibate for 27 years so I cannot see where he has sinned.

Dave Stones
22-06-2003, 15:14
to be honest i couldnt care less being an atheist.

but just for my 2penneth i seem to remember my RE lessons at school, doesnt the bible denounce homosexuality? or was that me living in my head again?

sure someone will either back me up or blow my point out of the water...

:walk:

Russ
22-06-2003, 15:16
Originally posted by Dave Stones
to be honest i couldnt care less being an atheist.

but just for my 2penneth i seem to remember my RE lessons at school, doesnt the bible denounce homosexuality? or was that me living in my head again?

sure someone will either back me up or blow my point out of the water...

:walk:

It points more to the sexual activities of homosexuals, rather than the people themselves.

Morpheus
23-06-2003, 12:16
"Who cares about his sexual orientation as long as he is doing his job right, he wouldn't have been appointed otherwise"

The C of E is no different from the catholic church, and that is full to the rafters with paedophile's and perverts, and they got the job, and it is covered up, where the hell does it end? no wonder the places are empty.......

Lord Nikon
23-06-2003, 12:26
To be honest I for one see no real place for ORGANISED religion in the world today.

If people want to believe in whatever deity they want then so be it, it is their entitlement, HOWEVER I refuse to let ANY of them try to impose their beliefs on me.

When you look at mainstream religion, and it doesn't matter which one, you see a doctrine founded in the blood of others...

Roman Catholics throwing christians to lions.
Christians - crusades or Holy wars, the torture of people who followed pagan faiths

Moslems - 9/11 ring any bells? or perhaps Iraq?

Egypt - slavery etc in the name of the egyptian gods...


and yet people follow these religions in the name of peace...

I believe that most, if not all religions were created as a form of mass control. Easy to convince a slave or subordinate to do your will by promising him untold riches after his death... he aint gonna contradict you and you don't have to PROVE anything...

I am not denouncing the existance of an all pervading entity, merely stating that the formation of an organised religion was to control people.. why else would an all forgiving god need to effectively threaten people into believing in him? (or her)

Russ
23-06-2003, 12:40
(sigh)

I was wondering how long it would take for this to rise it's head over here.....

The C of E is no different from the catholic church, and that is full to the rafters with paedophile's and perverts, and they got the job, and it is covered up

Making that kind of generalisation could land you in court. There is no evidence to suggest that kind of activity goes on in any more quantities than in other sections of society.

If people want to believe in whatever deity they want then so be it, it is their entitlement, HOWEVER I refuse to let ANY of them try to impose their beliefs on me.

Excellent, however when people say "There is no God" and "It's all a load of BS" then they are imposing their beliefs on us.

Christians - crusades or Holy wars, the torture of people who followed pagan faiths

Er sorry, but the crusades were Catholics.

and yet people follow these religions in the name of peace...

Yes indeed we do, but anyone who persecutes or causes pain to another in the name of 'religion' is not a true follower of that faith.

Morpheus
23-06-2003, 12:47
of course it will rear it's ugly head..because it is true, it has got to the stage where in the catholic church they have to vet their own, and they still can not weed them out..

Russ
23-06-2003, 12:50
Originally posted by Morpheus
of course it will rear it's ugly head..because it is true, it has got to the stage where in the catholic church they have to vet their own, and they still can not weed them out..

They've been vetting their own for hundreds of years, just as is done in the Police, the Education service, and any institution where adults are exposed to minors.

Lord Nikon
23-06-2003, 12:53
Russ. Not a direct criticism of your belief but an observation.

You say that anyone who commits violence in the name of religion is not following the faith....


[Rev 19:2] For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.


Rev 19:11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[Rev 19:15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
- Deuteronomy (ch. XIX, v. 21)


while the bible may not directly sanction violence, it does nothing to condemn it either...

Russ
23-06-2003, 12:58
It's so refreshing to discuss such matters with someone who actually does some research! :)

[Rev 19:2] For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

This is an act of God who punishes those who have repeatedly sinned against His word.

Rev 19:11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

That's the antichrist, for God's plan to unfold he has to cause death and war.


And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Deuteronomy is part of the Old Testament, a lot of which was, for lack of a better word 'revised' when Jesus came (hence the New Testament starts), he brought with Him many many new ideas and teachings.

Morpheus
23-06-2003, 13:04
"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse"

as quoted in the film "Pale Rider" did it not go on..."behold a man on a white horse, and his name was death"

Lord Nikon
23-06-2003, 13:04
Russ, the crux of my point IS Revolution 19:2...

Religious leaders, claiming to be an avatar of God's will sanction violence in his name.

The failing of religion is not the belief system itself, it is human nature. This is and always has been the failing of organised religion.

Russ
23-06-2003, 13:07
Originally posted by Lord Nikon
Russ, the crux of my point IS Revolution 19:2...

Religious leaders, claiming to be an avatar of God's will sanction violence in his name.

The failing of religion is not the belief system itself, it is human nature. This is and always has been the failing of organised religion.

Yes that's what Rev 19:2 alludes to but much could be the same about football. Do you really think that the idiots you see trashing cities where England play are genuine supporters? No! They are just using football as the excuse.

I also want to add my support to the idea of NOT having organised religion btw....

Lord Nikon
23-06-2003, 13:11
a more fitting quote about the belief system comes not from the bible, but from William Shakespeare's Hamlet..

"this above all, to thine own self be true"

Morpheus
23-06-2003, 13:19
and my final point on the issue..

"Nearly every war the world has ever had has been over religion".

I suppose it is ok for those that need a crutch to lean on..

Russ
23-06-2003, 13:23
Originally posted by Morpheus
and my final point on the issue..

"Nearly every war the world has ever had has been over religion".

I suppose it is ok for those that need a crutch to lean on..

Sorry but that's just wrong. There has NEVER been a war over religion. What there HAS been, is plenty of wars using religion as the catalyst. If they didn't use that as the excuse then they would only have found something else to fight over.

Ikelos
23-06-2003, 13:37
What ever way it is put, it amounts to the same thing, one trying to impose their will on others......instead of sitting back and thinking first..

imback
23-06-2003, 13:42
I always feel sorry for Russ in these type of threads, I know he can hadle himself, but it looks like picking sometimes, lucky Russ is a good natured guy.

So thought I'd join in the picking:D

Religion is no longer needed, I admire true christians (or any other religion for that matter) that do what is expected of them by their faith. I hate the Catholics that go to church for mid night mass and never think about god until next year.

It all creates more problems than it solves, and is often something for someone to hold onto that their loved ones are being looked when they have left them.

Chris
23-06-2003, 13:48
Originally posted by Ikelos
What ever way it is put, it amounts to the same thing, one trying to impose their will on others......instead of sitting back and thinking first..

You can only say that if you hold that religion is essentially an invention of humans.

What if religion, or, from my point of view, Christianity, is not an invention of people but handed to us by God? How is it then merely one person trying to impose his will on someone else?

If it's from God, is it not reasonable for people to want to tell other people about it?

And as regards thinking first, plenty of Christians, including me, thought for a very long time before getting involved. There was a time when I was completely against religion of any kind. After a great deal of thought, reading and talking to other people, I am a committed Christian, and a Christian who believes the message is well worth sharing (I say sharing, not imposing - anyone who tries to impose Christianity has missed the point).

Lord Nikon
23-06-2003, 13:50
Originally posted by imback
I always feel sorry for Russ in these type of threads, I know he can hadle himself, but it looks like picking sometimes, lucky Russ is a good natured guy.

So thought I'd join in the picking:D

Religion is no longer needed, I admire true christians (or any other religion for that matter) that do what is expected of them by their faith. I hate the Catholics that go to church for mid night mass and never think about god until next year.

It all creates more problems than it solves, and is often something for someone to hold onto that their loved ones are being looked when they have left them.

Actually imback, my comments were about ORGANISED religion, not simply religion in general.

If you have your beliefs, and also follow the Hamlet idiom of "This above all, to thine own self be true" then you have a basis in your belief system that cannot be strengthened by organised religion.

It is only when organisation comes into the equation that you end up with the ideals and beliefs you hold dear being corrupted.

imback
23-06-2003, 13:58
Originally posted by Lord Nikon
Actually imback, my comments were about ORGANISED religion, not simply religion in general.
.

Ok, but you do realise that what I said wasn't in any way aimed at or in response to what you said?

It was just my 2 pence worth.

Lord Nikon
23-06-2003, 14:00
agreed, and I wasn't flaming you, I was just explaining my point a little more is all :)

imback
23-06-2003, 14:07
Originally posted by Lord Nikon
agreed, and I wasn't flaming you, I was just explaining my point a little more is all :)

Cool

Stuart
23-06-2003, 15:17
Originally posted by Morpheus
and my final point on the issue..

"Nearly every war the world has ever had has been over religion".

I suppose it is ok for those that need a crutch to lean on..

As Russ has said, this is not true. People would still fight wars even without religion.

Stuart
23-06-2003, 15:20
Originally posted by Ikelos
What ever way it is put, it amounts to the same thing, one trying to impose their will on others......instead of sitting back and thinking first..

Anti Religious people have been known to do that as well..

Chris
23-06-2003, 16:13
Originally posted by scastle
Anti Religious people have been known to do that as well..

Very true, some of the worst Marxist tyrants of the 20th century had no religious motive, but that didn't stop them making tens of thousands of people 'disappear'.

How did we get to here from the Bish of Reading?!

Lord Nikon
23-06-2003, 17:02
by segway perhaps? lol