View Full Version : Can you go on holiday when on the sick?
zoombini
16-07-2003, 08:32
A colleague was signed off on the sick with an ear infection that gave him lots of problems.
During that time his wife booked a last minute holiday for a week which he also went on.
Is there a legal requirement for him to take the holiday days as holiday or will he be able to claim sickness throughout the period and keep his holiday entitlement?
Does anyone know the legal answer to this & can you back it up with specific references.
Cheers, Zoombini.
Some good companies will give you sick days if you're ill while on holiday.
As he's been signed off, I believe it would be illegal for him to work (he'd not be covered by his company's insurance)
Can't see too much of a problem taking a holiday while legitimately off sick (why even tell the company?)
The question might be, if he's got earache, how safe is it for him to fly?
If the infection is affecting his co-ordination, and he does a manual job etc, then I can't see any difference between him lying on the sofa at home or lying on a sunlounger abroad. Might actually help him recover quicker.
Also, most companies have insurance to cover sick pay, so it would probably be more financially benificial to let him have the time as sick
zoombini
16-07-2003, 09:04
Unfortunately he told them (prat!).
The flight was no problem and the holiday even helped his ear problem go away.
Unfortunately now the company are instisting he takes the holiday time as part of his holiday entitlement & I am trying to find the legal mumbo jumbo that eitther says they CAN do that or CANNOT.
zoombini
16-07-2003, 10:01
Does anyone know any online sites taht you can ask a legal bod for free?
I can only find ones where you have to pay oodles to ask a simple question.
Why not try Acas, I once did and they were able to tell me over the phone where I stood The link to there page is here (http://www.acas.org.uk/) and has the national phone number as well as more links.
Just as a matter of fact, at my old place of work one of the guys to ill on holiday and came back to work and changed his holidays to sick days ( twice )
I on the other hand went to France for the day when on the sick and got slated for it, so maybe it's the timing, I dont know but give Acas a call as I said.
Good luck
I would guess that it depend on the persons contract, there will be some accepted guidlines but it could differ from case to case.
I have emailed my daughter ( trainee solicitor ) at Gandalf - Removed Under request from poster a large national law firm with your query. Will let you know her reply, unless you find something concrete before then
Jim.
Originally posted by zoombini
Unfortunately he told them (prat!).
The flight was no problem and the holiday even helped his ear problem go away.
Unfortunately now the company are instisting he takes the holiday time as part of his holiday entitlement & I am trying to find the legal mumbo jumbo that eitther says they CAN do that or CANNOT.
I am (reasonably) confident that if he was officially signed off sick, the company would be breaking all kinds of laws by insisting those days be docked from his holiday entitlement.
Think of it this way - once the doctor says he should not work, he is under the care of the doctor. It's up to the doc to say what is acceptable and what is not. The company is not medically competent to dictate what is acceptable behaviour for a recuperating employee. They would have the right to have your friend examined by their own company doctor but there would be little point in that now, seeing as he has recovered.
It seems the company is upset because your friend has actually taken a foreign holiday while off sick. They are drawing an artificial distinction between being signed off work and sitting in front of the TV and being signed off work and sitting on a beach.
He needs to press the issue, and if they continue to be difficult he must ask them to explain where, in his contract or in law, they derive the authority to take his holiday entitlement from him.
zoombini
16-07-2003, 11:18
Thats what I think, if he is signed off sick, it is upto him & the doctor what he can do during that time.
I.E. if he was signed off sick because he has stress problems and
he was to go fishing ( a stress free enviroment) then there shhould be nothing his employers can do about it. While he is under the docs certificate his time is his to get better in.
He should be able to do anything he wishes providing he does not do enough to qualify as being fit for work, in which case he should consult the doctor with reference to returning to work.
Just because he is "sick" does not automatically mean he has to stay at home.
However, in this case he was not fit, he had an awful time on this paid for holiday that he could not get out of.
He just does not want to lose his holiday entitlment for it.
However, before he gets to fight it, he needs specific acts & law so I look forward to your daughters reply Iadom, thanks.
SMHarman
16-07-2003, 11:53
Originally posted by zoombini
A colleague was signed off on the sick with an ear infection that gave him lots of problems.
During that time his wife booked a last minute holiday for a week which he also went on.
Is there a legal requirement for him to take the holiday days as holiday or will he be able to claim sickness throughout the period and keep his holiday entitlement?
Does anyone know the legal answer to this & can you back it up with specific references.
Cheers, Zoombini.
Yes you can go on holiday while sick.
This is a good and bad thing.
If he was just off sick for a few days and on full pay during this time then he will be financially in no diferent a position, just a few holidays down.
If he were on long term sick and getting the minimum SSP, then when he went on holiday his eer would be obliged to pay him his holiday pay at normal salaried rates.
Now if he pays his doctor a tenner (or whatever they ask for a private letter) stating that a trip to a hot climate would be beneficial to a speedy recovery of the infection then the eer will probably drop it.
SMHarman
16-07-2003, 11:56
Originally posted by bopdude
Just as a matter of fact, at my old place of work one of the guys to ill on holiday and came back to work and changed his holidays to sick days ( twice )
I on the other hand went to France for the day when on the sick and got slated for it, so maybe it's the timing, I dont know but give Acas a call as I said.
Good luck
Not wishing to cast aspersions.
The impression that being sick and going on a day trip indicated to your eer that you were not sick but taking a sickie.
SMHarman
16-07-2003, 11:57
Was the OPs colleague signed off sick by a doctor or self certified?
If he was on a doctors note then it is sick whatever he was doing. (Caveat - Unless they caught him doing similar work for someone else when it is fraud).
zoombini
16-07-2003, 12:42
He was signed off with a sick note by the doctor.
He did not ask for a sick note, the doctor just gave it to him.
He normally gets full pay when off sick. I have seen nothing relating to this in any company rules or contracts.
Originally posted by SMHarman
Not wishing to cast aspersions.
The impression that being sick and going on a day trip indicated to your eer that you were not sick but taking a sickie.
I was on the sick for a week, had booked tickets for the England \ South Africa rugby match and trip to France way in advance of my " sickie ", and was not going to miss it for anything.
EDIT:- and actually put that question to my employer, " would you have missed the match of the year on your calender ? "
To which he replyed, probably not, but still docked me anyway..lol
SMHarman
16-07-2003, 12:51
Originally posted by zoombini
He was signed off with a sick note by the doctor.
He did not ask for a sick note, the doctor just gave it to him.
He normally gets full pay when off sick. I have seen nothing relating to this in any company rules or contracts.
So if signed off sick the doctor has certified he cannot work during that time.
If the patient then decides a holiday will help his health and the doctor does not advise it is unwise to travel (an ear infection and flying / travelling to somewhere with ianppropriate medical facilities for example) then you can do what you want.
Apart from similar work.
Who is driving this holiday thing his line manager or HR. He should probably go to HR who know the rules and know this is not something they should be doing.
zoombini
16-07-2003, 14:32
Its something Personel have said.
Although thats the very departmetn that make up all sorts of stupid and unfair rules.
We had a stupid one today (albiet not from them), that men wearing sandals must wear socks! We all laughed that one off straight away.
This is the reply from my daughter, and I must state that this is completely off the record.
To be honest most employment law is aimed at the employer itself rather than at what the employee can/can't do - that is generally governed by policies at work. This guy should have a look at his sickness procedure and also disciplinary and grievance procedures to see whether him going on holiday whilst off sick constitutes can lead to disciplinary proceedings (it does at a lot of companies). Basically if his working policy says he shouldn't do it and will be subject to disciplinary hearing he may therefore want to offer to give up some of his holiday entitlement to prevent his employer saying it was misconduct. I think they can demand he do it if its in their policy and is fair (which I think it is) and it would probably be seen as reasonable by a court if they disciplined him for it too although unlikely to be fair to dismiss him for it if it was his first offence.
HTH,
Jim.
zoombini
16-07-2003, 16:43
OK thankyou 9& her) Iadom, although her reply does look more like its something to do with him being disciplined (he's not) it does appear to be a Grey area where the employer can do what they want.
Not seeing it in the handed out company policies does not nessasarily mean they do not have a policy on it. Just that we do not get to know about it until its called for. (or they make it up).
Cheers.
SMHarman
16-07-2003, 16:49
The whole thing seems a bit tight. I've known people who were due to go on holiday, got sick and cancelled the holiday (travel insurance and all that) and the firm allowed them to take what should have been holiday as sick.
As I said get the doctor to write a note stating a holiday would be good for the symptoms watch them drop the arguement quickly.
zoombini
17-07-2003, 10:00
HE has decided to let the matter drop, he had a holiday after all.
If he was to press it he might lose some of the other priveledges he enjoys, like coming in late after dropping kids off at train station etc.
Despite it being against the law for a company to claim sick pay at the same time a person is being paid for being on paid holiday
which is what they will be doing. Apparently it has been a point agued about before, but was also dropped to prevent other things not being stopped. Anything for an easy life, heck if the company want to break the law who are we to stop them.
Originally posted by zoombini
like coming in late after dropping kids off at train station etc.
Incidentally, his right to do this is guaranteed by European law, it's not a 'privilege' bestowed by a gracious employer.
Don't suppose you want to name and shame these cowboys do you?
(No, I didn't think so...) ;)
Originally posted by towny
Incidentally, his right to do this is guaranteed by European law, it's not a 'privilege' bestowed by a gracious employer.
Don't suppose you want to name and shame these cowboys do you?
(No, I didn't think so...) ;)
His right to come in late is guaranteed by European Law??? That's a new one to me...
SMHarman
17-07-2003, 10:31
Originally posted by zoombini
<snip>
Despite it being against the law for a company to claim sick pay at the same time a person is being paid for being on paid holiday
which is what they will be doing.
Once this has been properly recorded in the payroll system the SSP claim will be backed out.
Also if the eer is big enough they don't get as much help with SSp/SMP and the like
SMHarman
17-07-2003, 10:35
Originally posted by danielf
His right to come in late is guaranteed by European Law??? That's a new one to me...
Actually its UK law.
EMPLOYMENT ACT 2002
Implementing a load of european directives.
http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/employ/index.htm#Flexibility
under the heading "Facilitate flexible working "
As long as one child is under 6.
Its not a right to come in late, its a right to flexible working. If that means arriving late so you can drop the kids off and your partner leaving early (and arriving early) so they can collect them then so be it.
Originally posted by SMHarman
Actually its UK law.
EMPLOYMENT ACT 2002
Implementing a load of european directives.
http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/employ/index.htm#Flexibility
under the heading "Facilitate flexible working "
As long as one child is under 6.
Its not a right to come in late, its a right to flexible working. If that means arriving late so you can drop the kids off and your partner leaving early (and arriving early) so they can collect them then so be it.
Sounds good to me. Mind you, I can pretty much come and go as I please anyway.
SMHarman
17-07-2003, 12:01
Originally posted by danielf
Sounds good to me. Mind you, I can pretty much come and go as I please anyway.
So says your sig!
Originally posted by SMHarman
So says your sig!
:LOL:
zoombini
17-07-2003, 21:57
No I'd rather not name them....lol
Neither are his kids under 6, more like 18... but thats another story.
Coming in late & leaving late is an "arrangement" & he does not want to jeopardise that. Still, he knows better now and next time he won't be ringing personnel up to tell them he's going on Holiday while he is booked off sick.
I thinks he has learnt his lesson and should keep his gob shut next time...:D
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