Sky drop Picnic plans

[BenMcr]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7612854.stm

Sky channels including Sky News, Sports News and Sky Three are to remain on Freeview as plans to replace them with a pay-TV service have been shelved.

[dilligaf1701]

MMMmmm I don't know how this makes me feel.

I don't want to get a sky dish, I can't get virgin cable any more so I guess it would have been another option.

I could get top up tv again, but I find that pretty poor.

HHHmmm

[Chrysalis]

yeah the consumer has lost out from this, currently to get sky sports or movies you need to subscribe to a annual sky mix contract.

This would have allowed people to get movies and/or sports on a monthly basis on freeview.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

yeah the consumer has lost out from this, currently to get sky sports or movies you need to subscribe to a annual sky mix contract.

This would have allowed people to get movies and/or sports on a monthly basis on freeview.

Except that it wouldn't - Sky was proposing broadcasting these services over DTT using MPEG4, which would have required the use of a separate STB. The suspicion here was always that Sky was trying to get ahead of the game and dominate the next generation of DTT STBs, which will be required if we are ever to have any kind of terrestrial HD service in this country.

That's partly why Ofcom was investigating this. Happily for the majority, Ofcom is taking its time, and this has caused Sky to put the brakes on its plans.

Sky was allowed to run riot in the satellite arena in the 1980s & 90s to such an extent that almost nobody in the UK is even aware that you can get free TV via a dish, despite the fact that such services are very common across Europe, and it has been necessary for the BBC and ITV to create a brand in order to promote the fact (Freesat).

While it may restrict choice for a few people who want to decide how much Sky they want, and whether they want it via a dish, a cable or a UHF aerial, on balance I think it is better for the majority if Sky is not permitted to launch a DTT STB that will only serve to muddy the waters that Freeview has painstakingly cleared after the mess OnDigital and ITV Digital made of DTT broadcasting in the UK.

[Hugh]

I, for one, would gladly pay extra to have Sky1, Sky3, Sky News, Sky Arts, and Sky SportsNews on Freeview, even if I didn't watch them or already had Sky.

(sorry, I appear to be channeling someone else at the moment )

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

yeah the consumer has lost out from this, currently to get sky sports or movies you need to subscribe to a annual sky mix contract.

This would have allowed people to get movies and/or sports on a monthly basis on freeview.

The consumer has lost out because they get free channels as opposed to having to pay for channels that if they want to pay for them, they can get them elsewhere?

[dragon]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

I, for one, would gladly pay extra to have Sky1, Sky3, Sky News, Sky Arts, and Sky SportsNews on Freeview, even if I didn't watch them or already had Sky.

(sorry, I appear to be channeling someone else at the moment )

You mean DTT.

Freeview is a Brandname DTT is digital terristral television.

[Hugh]

Originally Posted by dragon

You mean DTT.

Freeview is a Brandname DTT is digital terristral television.

No, I meant Freeview, which has
, , amongst many others.

Now, Freeview may be one of the many delivery methods of DTT, but it was the one I meant.

[dragon]

But if PayTV was on it then that wouldn't be Freeview would it
It would be Sky via DTT (Digital Terristrial Television)

[popper]

Originally Posted by Chris

Except that it wouldn't - Sky was proposing broadcasting these services over DTT using MPEG4, which would have required the use of a separate STB. The suspicion here was always that Sky was trying to get ahead of the game and dominate the next generation of DTT STBs, which will be required if we are ever to have any kind of terrestrial HD service in this country.

That's partly why Ofcom was investigating this. Happily for the majority, Ofcom is taking its time, and this has caused Sky to put the brakes on its plans.

Sky was allowed to run riot in the satellite arena in the 1980s & 90s to such an extent that almost nobody in the UK is even aware that you can get free TV via a dish, despite the fact that such services are very common across Europe, and it has been necessary for the BBC and ITV to create a brand in order to promote the fact (Freesat).

While it may restrict choice for a few people who want to decide how much Sky they want, and whether they want it via a dish, a cable or a UHF aerial, on balance I think it is better for the majority if Sky is not permitted to launch a DTT STB that will only serve to muddy the waters that Freeview has painstakingly cleared after the mess OnDigital and ITV Digital made of DTT broadcasting in the UK.

first of all ITs Mpeg4-AVC (aka mpeg4-part10/H.264) , "mpeg4" was infact the very old
Mpeg4-part2 (aka ASP/DivX/Xvid) check the official specs, its clear as day, any use of "mpeg4" in advertising just makes the salesmans job of conning the end users into buying old end of life kit far easyer and your helping them do that by using the wrong terms.

if YOU dont make the effort to type the full name and help others less tech than you understand the difference, then your doing everyone a disservice, hell useing even "AVC" would be far better than mearly "mpeg4".

Sky were potentially proposing using DVB-T2 the the very latest standard,and its in use TODAY in several EU countrys that are wanting to beat us, and so gain new chashflow for their innovations its also true that ANY current UK DVB-T broadcasters could also use it , but for the fact there IS NO MARKET in the UK for this standard as no ones even trying to push it, never mind spend the upgrade money and use it.

thats were sky were at least trying to give an incentive to use it, and good for them, as all the other current DTT services are just sat there perpetually waiting for something to force them to change, that could have been this sky venture, alas not now.

the real reason Ofcom are stalling is very simple, if you were to follow the money, they are waiting to sell off al the Uk airwaves to internations corps for wads of cash without a care of the long term effects this will have on real cost effective long term DTT HD over the far better DVB-*2 to the Uk public, open your eyes and see it for what it is, sky may have been trying to get a leg up by forcing DVB-T2 but long term it was a good thing for all concerned.

who else will now bring out advanced DVB-T2 , certainly not the freeview cartel, as they have already said that instead of mandating the DVB-T2 change over ready for the analogue turn off and so allowing far more end users STBS and PC USB2 sticks to come to market, they are going to wait until its all been turned off and only then PERHAPS they MIGHT start using DVH-T2 after that 20012+ if they can find any spare freqs left unsold to the mega corps.

whatever way you look at it form a consumer POV or a medium or even large UK company looking get into UK DTT NG content supply its a very bad thing to not use Mpeg4-AVC and DVB-T2 kit ASAP to seed the markets ready for your new services....

this is nothing to do with SKY getting the advantage yet again, its about delaying any potential uses for the freed up analogue sellof and the lack of will inside the freeview collective (aside form sky oc) to really push for this new generic standard even after the EU already came down on the side on the DVB* for the EU default standard.

your "Happily for the majority" could'nt be any more wrong in this, this is infact a very bad thing for the UK long term.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by popper

the reason Ofcom are stalling is very simple if you were to follow the money, they are waiting to sell off al the Uk airwaves to internations corps for wads of cash without a care of the long term effects this will have on real cost effective long term DTT HD over the far better DVB-*2 to the Uk public, open your eyes and see it for what it is, sky may have been trying to get a leg up by forcing DVB-T2 but long term it was a god thing for all concerned.

[/B]

Unfortunately, giving Sky such an early "leg up" as you suggest would not only deprive millions of freeview viewers of Sky, but would also risk giving Sky control of the next-generation of freeview boxes.

This is a bad thing, irrespective of the technology used.

It's also worth noting that Sky own 1/3 of Freeview. I am fairly certain that if they *really* wanted to push the technical boundries (rather than just squeeze some subscriptions out of a service that probably makes them relatively little), they could persuade the others. Let's face it, the BBC is considerably less afraid of new technology than most of the commercial broadcasters, and Crown Castle may actually profit through carrying more channels, so they would probably be interested.

[popper]

Originally Posted by Stuart C

Unfortunately, giving Sky such an early "leg up" as you suggest would not only deprive millions of freeview viewers of Sky, but would also risk giving Sky control of the next-generation of freeview boxes.

This is a bad thing, irrespective of the technology used.

It's also worth noting that Sky own 1/3 of Freeview. I am fairly certain that if they *really* wanted to push the technical boundries (rather than just squeeze some subscriptions out of a service that probably makes them relatively little), they could persuade the others.

Let's face it, the BBC is considerably less afraid of new technology than most of the commercial broadcasters, and Crown Castle may actually profit through carrying more channels, so they would probably be interested.

you might have a case but for the fact the DVB-*2 chipsets and SOC are already in existance, and all sky were going to do was perhaps commission an STB with this DVB-T2 spec, plus whatever else they wanted to include for their long term objectives, smart card slot or more likely some form of soldered on the motherboard (But they would have to stay within the legal framework that already exists for sat OC).

any UK broadcaster can take the exact same route and buy in generic DVB-T2 import from the EU and far east or commission their own special Freeview versions TODAY, they just dont want to be first to do it and spend the cash as its not clear where the freqs will be 2 years from now as no single UK company can afford the cash to buy these new released analogue slots outright andtheres still no real talk of cooperation as yet, i suspect sky might come up and buy some for later use and advantage in for instance near future multicast Wimax broadcasting if they dont get outbid for it first OC.

as already stated several EU countrys already run DVB-T2 and there exists generic DVB-T2 STBS Today off the shelf.

sure id add my usual (RTL) 1gig RJ45 ports (a cheap wireless 11g/n chip too if its not already included in the chipset/SOC)and added Multcast TCP:IP/UDP in the generic firmware as a mandated default open standard for ALL new STBS and USB2 sticks etc coming to market.

with the stated purpose to open it all up later in new services, but without anyone i nthe UK even trying to use DVB-T2 for mediam term its all a dead duck and its clear Ofcom etal have other motives of their own thats nothing to do with whats good for the real end users that wil be paying for all this kit at some time or other.

its my contention that this should start taking place right NOW as the analogue switch off has already begin, and id rather set the DVB-T2/AVC standard and get it right first time than have several bits of old kit sitting there under your tele by final switch off 2012 , only to have to go and buy yet another DVB-T2 STB that could have been on the shelf and being sold today getting cheaper by the week as volume sales increased and given some broadcasters incentive to start some real country wide DTT AVC trials.

any DVB-T2 chipset can decode the old/current DVB-T/Mpeg2 transport stream today andlater the AVC OC so why not seed it right now and all the way up to 2012+

sure sky and the BBC combined might one day work together on this AVC TS DTT, its also clear sky are looking to save longterm by using and encoding to AVC transport streams,on the sat (Vm could have been taking advantage of that AVC TS today too if they had kept the AVCstbs going and junked the V+ as you know), but without Ofcom etc agreeing to this change of broadcast contract/licence to finally let them use and broadcast AVC encoding over UK DTT they cant go anywere can they, its the law.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by popper

as already stated several EU countrys alread run DVB-T2 and ther exists generic DVB-T2 STBS Today off the shelf.

I would love to know where.

According to this press release from the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pre...er/01/hd.shtml, they are the first people anywhere in the world to build a DVB-T2 reciever. That was released on the 1st of September

Then you also have this http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcintern...modulator.html which goes in to a lot of technical detail of how the BBC built the first DVB-T2 reciever (and transmitter)

A quote from the second link:
On the day that the specification was approved by DVB (26 June 2008), we issued a press release to tell the world that we had begun the world's first experimental DVB-T2 transmissions

---------- Post added at 02:40 ---------- Previous post was at 01:27 ----------

Even Wikipedia agrees with the BBC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVB-T

The first test from a real TV-transmitter was performed by the BBC Research & Innovation in the last weeks of June 2008 [1] using channel 53 from the Guildford transmitter, southwest of London. The BBC had developed and built the modulator/demodulator prototype in parallel with the DVB-T2 standard being drafted.

[popper]

sorry i was wrong :handsup: OC the spec has been worked on for a while now but it has been pushed through pritty quickly by any standards as the story you point out indicates, you just got to love those FPGAs .

http://www.dvb.org/news_events/news/...tifi/index.xml

http://www.dvb.org/news_events/news/index.xml

http://www.dvb.org/news_events/news/index.xml
"DVB-C2 "Call for Technologies" released
(18 February 2008)

The issue of a Call for Technologies is a key step in the development of the next generation standard for transmission over cable networks."

i was apparently getting confused with the DVB-S2 spec and STBs SOC, iv not been following the DVB* as close as i used to ,wimax is my main interest for quite some time now, and it appears the proposed push to make/take pre DVB-T2 kit and trials have sliped a lot in favour of the DVB-H and related projects,so much so it has now become a real standard before anyone even tryed, i just assumed they would go through but it appears on first glance this world analogue selloff might be one of the main reasons of slippage although i dont have any evidence of that yet, i may find it when i find the time to catch up on developments OC or not as the case may be later.

there does exist a first generation prototypes DVB-T2 demodulator/tuner now and was shown at that same venue apparently, OC the BBC got in there first so its good at least someone in the Uk cares enough about that legacy to do it and thats a good thing.

http://www.nxp.com/news/content/file_1466.html


NXP to Demonstrate End-to-End DVB-T2 Transmission at IBC 2008 in Amsterdam



DVB-T2 demodulator prototype to enable next HDTV broadcast revolution


Eindhoven, Netherlands – September 10, 2008 – NXP Semiconductors, the independent company founded by Philips, will unveil a demonstration of an end-to-end DVB-T2 technology-based transmission at the IBC 2008 conference in Amsterdam. The demonstration features NXP’s silicon tuner TDA18211HN and one of the first prototypes of NXP’s DVB-T2 demodulator TDA10055 – which will complete NXP’s wide range of front-end products for digital TV reception.

Building on the success of NXP’s DVB-T receivers, the new demodulator’s unique architecture will enable all the benefits of DVB-T2, the most advanced digital terrestrial TV system, to be delivered to tomorrow’s living rooms. NXP developed its DVB-T2 demonstration at IBC in close collaboration with ENENSYS and Pace plc
...
"

the best i can find on a very quick look right now is a proposed pilot/trials in 2010.
http://www.dvb.org/about_dvb/dvb_wor...zech_republic/

"DVB-T2 and MPEG-4 for HD on DTT
The broadcast network operator Ceske Radiokomunikace (CRa) has announced plans to switch to the DVB-T2 specification in 2013, at a meeting with journalists on the 28th May.
Director for the digital transition Levinsky Kamil said that the DVB-T2 format would be used together with MPEG-4 compression to broadcast an HD TV service.

He went on to say that Ceske Radiokomunikace was considering the launch of a pilot using the new technologies in 2010 either in Prague or Brno.

Source: DigiZone.cz
Item added: 2nd June 2008"

so perhaps theres still time for the Uk to get in gear and stand behind the BBC innovations and work to again lead the way in the EU and the world or not as the OFcom etc dont seem interested in anything substantial but the wireless selloff.... to worldwide mega investors ;(


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVB-T#DVB-T2
"
The BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and Five have agreed with the regulator Ofcom to convert one UK multiplex (B, or PSB3) to DVB-T2 to increase capacity for HDTV via DTT.[4] They expect the first TV region to use the new standard will be Granada in November 2009 (with existing switched over regions being changed at the same time).

It is expected that over time there will be enough DVB-T2 receivers sold to switch all DTT transmissions to DVB-T2, and H.264.

Ofcom recently published its final decision for HDTV using DVB-T2 and MPEG-4 [5]: BBC HD will have one HD slot after DSO at Granada and ITV, C4 and Five will compete for the two remaining HD slots from 2009 until 2012."

[Chris]

Originally Posted by popper

<snippage>

this is nothing to do with SKY getting the advantage yet again, its about delaying any potential uses for the freed up analogue sellof and the lack of will inside the freeview collective (aside form sky oc) to really push for this new generic standard even after the EU already came down on the side on the DVB* for the EU default standard.

your "Happily for the majority" could'nt be any more wrong in this, this is infact a very bad thing for the UK long term.

I snipped out all the stuff where you focus on the minutae of versions in the standard ... the fact is, for the man in the street, it is simply not relevant. It may be an interesting discussion point for the technically minded, but Joe Public just wants his TV to work, and if he's the sort of Joe who just wants his Freeview TV to work, he is very unlikely to be the sort who cares less about standards, or what more his STB could do if only the industry would adopt more recent specs, etc etc etc. That's why he bought himself a Freeview box instead of a Sky or VM subscription.

The fact is, we adopted DTT in this country earlier than most. Sure, the switchover programme is taking a lot longer than most, but that's at least partly OnDigital/ITV Digital's fault. Either way, the standards to be used for DTT in the UK were agreed a very long time ago. Once the standard is fixed, you can't go changing it every five minutes and forcing people to buy new STBs just because some shiny new standard comes out that allows broadcasters to cram a few more shopping channels into the muxes. Remember the hoo-hah when ITV Digital collapsed and people who had bought boxes wanted to know if they'd work with Freeview? It was bad enough when it was just a few STBs, imagine the uproar when people get told their brand new, integrated digital TV is obsolete already and requires a new STB in order to receive the latest innovations.

I don't buy your analysis of Sky's intentions here. If they were simply trying to make an honest dollar and had no thoughts whatsoever for controlling both the content and the platform, well then that would be a world first for them. If Sky get next generation DTT boxes into people's homes, then they will control a de facto standard which Ofcom, the BBC and everyone else will have an impossibly hard time resisting. Ofcom knows this and is wisely stalling them.

I think you're right to suggest Ofcom has been less than honourable in its handling of the analogue spectrum sell-off but I believe you're mistaken to make too strong a connection between what are two mostly separate issues. The fact that they won't be allowing the analogue spectrum to be used to carry HD certainly does have an impact on its deliberations as to how to squeeze HD into the existing Freeview broadcast space, but that decision having been taken, I don't think it follows that they should then sit back and allow Sky to stage a takeover, even if it offered to buy up the entire analogue spectrum for the good of the country. It would be a Faustian deal we would all come to regret in the long term. Murdoch already controls enough of the satellite uplink infrastructure in the UK that he can dictate BBC/ITV-Freesat's channel launch schedule - do we really want him to have the same control of future Freeview-HD services?