BT Infinity - pricing - Page 4

Sephiroth · 22-01-2010, 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broadbandings

This product is nothing to do with leased line customers though Seph, nor LLU operators, it uses WBC. .....

You know the difference between WBC and WBMC right Seph?

Yeah - my bad. I didn't mean 1:1 - I meant it as clumsy shorthand for the non-contended line from home to new cabinet.

As for WBC & WBMC, if nothing else it's well covered in Sam Knows. But I guess your question was founded on my 1:1 slip up.

I think your main point is that Wholesale can't charge other parts of BT less for capacity than they would charge other ISPs. You've analysed the published working papers (which contains the costs you've mentioned) and reached your conclusions.

I'm not coming from there. By 2012 BT will have completed its 21CN infrastructure replacement and all its current services will have migrated. FTTC will ride on that new infrastructure. BT has deeper pockets long term than VM and VM have plenty to worry about IMO. The LLU ISPs, with their infrastructure, dilutes contention on BT's estate. Simples.

Ignitionnet · 22-01-2010, 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I'm not coming from there. By 2012 BT will have completed its 21CN infrastructure replacement and all its current services will have migrated. FTTC will ride on that new infrastructure. BT has deeper pockets long term than VM and VM have plenty to worry about IMO. The LLU ISPs, with their infrastructure, dilutes contention on BT's estate. Simples.

That doesn't make a huge amount of sense Seph.

The completion of the PSTN migration to 21CN will not affect the pricing of FTTC in any way.

The completion of migration to 21CN of the exchanges that are getting it (they aren't all getting moved to 21CN backhaul for DSL just FYI) won't affect the prices of WBC / WBMC which are now fixed for the foreseeable future and unlikely to drop due to economies of scale or anything else as exchanges just get more expensive to upgrade and maintain as they become more remote.

There are no plans for further WBC/WBMC price drops at this time. They were only recently and significantly dropped.

BT aren't covering all VM areas with their FTTC/P products, they plan to cover 40% of the UK by 2012 and FTTC is scheduled to max out at 60Mbit. Only 4% of the UK will be covered by the 100Mbit FTTP product.

There are no LLU operators with present plans to utilise the Openreach NGA and deliver services over FTTC/P with any scale. Even if there were they would not dilute contention on the main contention point between Wholesale ISPs and the BT network as that is entirely dependent on how much money that ISP spends per customer they acquire, not purely by how many customers they have.

I'm sure the pricing will drop in the future and no doubt the FTTC/P products will grow past their original rollout to 2012 at some stage but we don't 'know' anything about what is happening past this date. To say that completion of 21CN will somehow change things is quite simply wrong and to rely on LLU ISPs none of whom have shown any serious interest in the NGA as yet is also dubious.

VM have plenty to keep an eye on but at the moment there's no real need to panic just on account of BT Retail announcing a product. Should an LLU operator show serious interest and BT accelerate the rollout of NGA and its' scope then yeah, be worried. With current plans and indicators VM will be faster than FTTC current or planned before the end of this year anyway.

It's all urination in the wind so far. BT have a lot to do to obtain parity with Virgin, and Virgin are spending a lot of money this year to ensure they don't.

Sephiroth · 22-01-2010, 16:58

@ BBings

We both read the same stuff and clearly use it differently.

The LLU ISPs will reap the benefit of FTTC because customers will continue to make their choices.

The BT infrastructure will be modern, scalable and reach everywhere that VM reaches and beyond. BT are accelerating the rollout of NGA.

I don't doubt that VM will be able to release faster than 50 Mbps broadband but I see all this in the context of the current fiasco with no certainty apparent to me (I concede you may be in a more privileged position than I) that VM know how to deliver a quality service let alone have the investment funds to extend their reach and replace old infrasturcure. A lot of people will see it the same way.

TheDon · 22-01-2010, 17:14

You seem to be completely ignoring the point that BT can't roll this out without anything less than 100:1 contention due to the costs of bandwidth.

It doesn't matter how modern and scalable your infrastructure is if you're paying Â£40/mbps of bandwidth.

Taf · 22-01-2010, 17:47

Quote:

BT Retail said customers of the cheaper Infinity service would be limited to downloads of 20GB per month. Those paying more will get an unlimited service.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8474195.stm

I wonder what they mean by "unlimited"?

*sloman* · 22-01-2010, 17:57

1 LLU already looking at this, SKY!!

http://skyhispeedbb.com/

Quote:

Sky TV customers could experience super-fast broadband speeds of up to 40Meg. This will give enough speed to run multiple bandwidth heavy applications. A family could be watching different HD movies while others were gaming or working on complex graphics or video projects.

It will also provide faster upstream speeds of up to 10Mb, enabling Sky TV customers to post videos, experience high definition video conferencing and enjoy interactive high definition gaming.

Throughout 2010 BT Openreach will be opening up exchanges to test this new technology. If the trial proves to be successful Sky will be rolling this new technology across our network.

A family could be watching different Sky Player movies while others were gaming or working on complex graphics or video projects.
It will also provide faster upstream speeds of up to 10Mb, enabling Sky TV customers to post videos, experience high definition video conferencing and enjoy interactive high definition gaming.

Throughout 2010 BT Openreach will be opening up exchanges to test this new technology. If the trial proves to be successful Sky will be rolling this new technology across our network.

A family could be watching different Sky Player movies while others were gaming or working on complex graphics or video projects.

We will be offering selected customers in these exchanges the opportunity to be one of the first to experience this new technology.
Simply register your interest and we will contact you when this service will be available in your area. Customers taking part in the trial will receive a new router and modem. An engineer on behalf of Sky will also visit your home to upgrade your phone socket, set up your modem/router and check your internet connection.

You'll also get your Sky Talk and Sky Broadband package FREE for the length of the trial.

Ignitionnet · 22-01-2010, 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by *sloman*

1 LLU already looking at this, SKY!!

http://skyhispeedbb.com/

*Nod*

O2 have done a limited trial as well but neither has committed to a larger rollout.

I'm hoping things work well - we'll see. I do like that Sky are committed to the 10Mbit upstream.

That is brand new, curse Sky for hiding it so well my usual suspects had no idea and they know most things!

One turnoff at present is that BT are yet to get the 10 Gig backhauls working which makes the sums not so hot for major rollouts at the moment. I hope that gets fixed quickly.

22-01-2010, 18:48

Registered interest in SKY with a bit of luck and a follwoing wind they will install quickly after Nuneaton goes live

Ignitionnet · 22-01-2010, 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taf

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8474195.stm

I wonder what they mean by "unlimited"?

Subject to shaping and FUP, probably similar to the ADSL2+ service it will share bandwidth with.

Quite depressing that the person who wrote that article fails at the English language though.

Quote:

Trials has been held in London's Muswell Hill, Whitchurch and Glasgow.

Them trials, they has been held, garrr!

---------- Post added at 19:51 ---------- Previous post was at 19:49 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by zing

Registered interest in SKY with a bit of luck and a follwoing wind they will install quickly after Nuneaton goes live

Might be in luck! Sky have to purchase an interconnect from BT to connect the FTTC kit to their own equipment but if you've registered interest they may get it done quickly.

22-01-2010, 18:53

lol I like the idea of free duing the trial. Will have to get the BT line reconnected (last time I looked there was a tone)

sollp · 22-01-2010, 19:29

From my perspective on this, this type of product will require more man power and to maintain it, as experience has shown with VM architecture being in the street, BT will soon realise to keep it going, especially when those nasty power outages and maintenance of the cabinets, will cost alot of money.

Albie · 22-01-2010, 19:54

I'm sticking with VM. Stay loyal, gang.

Ignitionnet · 22-01-2010, 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albie

I'm sticking with VM. Stay loyal, gang.

Why?

I owe VM nothing and will take the best deal available for my needs, as I would hope anyone will. It is just business to both us and them, no feelings of loyalty from either side I would hope. Loyalty suggests attachment and being attached to your telco / TV company is, well, odd. Certainly none at all here, up to VM to keep the product persuasive enough to keep my business, no company has my loyalty as none could care less about me.

I'm loyal to friends and family, certainly not to any supplier of services to me. To them I'm a faceless customer number, to me they're a means to an end and the best deal at the time - I have as much loyalty to Virgin or any other supplier as they do to me - zero

---------- Post added at 21:01 ---------- Previous post was at 20:57 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by sollp

From my perspective on this, this type of product will require more man power and to maintain it, as experience has shown with VM architecture being in the street, BT will soon realise to keep it going, especially when those nasty power outages and maintenance of the cabinets, will cost alot of money.

BT's FTTC architecture is actually considerably lower maintenance than VM's nonetheless you're right for sure, it's vulnerable to power outages and will increase some aspects of maintenance.

The lowest maintenance and most robust solution will always be FTTH.

sollp · 22-01-2010, 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broadbandings

Why?

I owe VM nothing and will take the best deal available for my needs, as I would hope anyone will. It is just business to both us and them, no feelings of loyalty from either side I would hope. Loyalty suggests attachment and being attached to your telco / TV company is, well, odd. Certainly none at all here, up to VM to keep the product persuasive enough to keep my business, no company has my loyalty as none could care less about me.

I'm loyal to friends and family, certainly not to any supplier of services to me. To them I'm a faceless customer number, to me they're a means to an end and the best deal at the time - I have as much loyalty to Virgin or any other supplier as they do to me - zero

---------- Post added at 21:01 ---------- Previous post was at 20:57 ----------

BT's FTTC architecture is actually considerably lower maintenance than VM's nonetheless you're right for sure, it's vulnerable to power outages and will increase some aspects of maintenance.

The lowest maintenance and most robust solution will always be FTTH.

Yes they haven't quite the same as VM, and it will be on a smaller scale.

Sephiroth · 22-01-2010, 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albie

I'm sticking with VM. Stay loyal, gang.

Loyal to what? RTFF!

(Doesn't mean I'll be leaving them - I'd consider being loyal to someone who pays ME!!)