Look before you leap!

[slowcoach]

I see members talking about leaving NTL and going for ADSL, quoting better value for high speed ADSL etc..

For starters, most homes will not be able to get better than 512 Kb/s due to them being too far from the exchange or due to rusty wires.

I had 512 Kb/s and it was perfect, never once a lost connection, but even with the "extended reach" I could not get 1MB installed due to noise. I am well within the range of the exchange so in my case I was foiled by the rusty wires, even though the outside wires were upgraded about 3 years ago.

A friend of mine had 1MB ADSL installed before extended reach was introduced and his connection is dropping all the time.

BT have stated that they are only going to install fibre in new properties, current properties will continue at whatever speed they have now, unless the technology improves.

So although people are comparing the price of 1MB or 2MB ADSL with Cable it is all hypothetical if you cannot get the higher speed ADSL in the first place.

[Ignition]

Originally Posted by slowcoach

BT have stated that they are only going to install fibre in new properties, current properties will continue at whatever speed they have now, unless the technology improves.

You must be joking, BT have no intention to begin a nationwide rollout of fibre at all. Even in the few areas they do roll it out it will only be to make sure that all customers can get ADSL so that they can proceed with their own network economisation plans, they couldn't give a monkeys about providing people faster ADSL At the moment.

Let me put it this way...

The current 2Mbit products actually use a business service, there is no 2Mbit home product from BT Wholesale at the moment.
BT Wholesale released 1Mbit Home service about a year ago, only 18 months or so after cable companies.
BT have been offering the same maximum speed to most business customers since the release of the service, 2Mbit downstream, 256kbit upstream.

BT are the company that took the fibre that was already in their network and wrapped copper around it to deliver ADSL. Go figure...

BT are doing a trial of fibre to the home that is in progress, however before anyone gets too optimistic though BT were doing a trial of 26Mbit DSL technology... 7 years ago. Trials certainly do not equal a commercial deployment any time soon in the case of BT.

[andygrif]

Originally Posted by Ignition

BT are doing a trial of fibre to the home that is in progress, however before anyone gets too optimistic though BT were doing a trial of 26Mbit DSL technology... 7 years ago. Trials certainly do not equal a commercial deployment any time soon in the case of BT.

A lot of this is about upgrade paths. Faster speeds attract customers and that's good news for BT as they have some pretty cool technology that will, over time, filter through to home users.

Think of it like a razor. I'm pretty sure some R&D department at Gillette has already invented the perfect shaving razor. But we have 'improvements' drip fed to us all the time to make us all ditch the one we're currently using and go and buy the next one that comes out!

[slowcoach]

Originally Posted by Ignition

BT have no intention to begin a nationwide rollout of fibre at all.

I can't really blame them, new technology could make any decision obsolete before it was completed, what with power lines, Wi-MAX and who knows what else just around the corner I wouldn't like to be the one having to make the decision to spend Billions, not that BT ever would

[Ignition]

A lot of this is about upgrade paths. Faster speeds attract customers and that's good news for BT as they have some pretty cool technology that will, over time, filter through to home users.

Ah but they involve spending large amounts of money and taking risks, something BT aren't fond of at all, they're quite a tight bunch with their wallets unless the gain is quick and palpable. Sadly innovation isn't high on the list at BT. Getting every penny out of the current set up is far higher on the list of things to do, just check out ADSLGuide.

(Spoken as an ADSL customer who wants more than BT are prepared to offer at this time).

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by Ignition

Trials certainly do not equal a commercial deployment any time soon in the case of BT.

Watch this space......

[Stuart C]

Originally Posted by Ignition

Ah but they involve spending large amounts of money and taking risks, something BT aren't fond of at all, they're quite a tight bunch with their wallets unless the gain is quick and palpable. Sadly innovation isn't high on the list at BT. Getting every penny out of the current set up is far higher on the list of things to do, just check out ADSLGuide.

(Spoken as an ADSL customer who wants more than BT are prepared to offer at this time).

Not everyone who is on ADSL has to be connected through BT wholesale. There are some companies who are unbundling the Local Loop and are able to offer connections through their own networks. Bulldog being a prime example, and one who is having Cable and Wireless (rather ironically I think) spend millions of pounds investing in their network.

Admittedly, BT could be doing a lot more to encourage Local Loop Unbundling (I have heard some nasty stories of how unco-operative BT can be with this).

[Ignition]

Originally Posted by Russ D

Watch this space......

Will do.

Hope they do better than BT Retail, with their Flexible Bandwidth innovation, still yet to appear, home networking, still yet to appear. Though they did get a rebadged version of Yahoo Messenger sorted

On the upside BT Retail are considering using LLU due to the slow deployment of higher rate and innovative products from BT Wholesale, which is nice

BTW are currently studying their network to decide how much if any fibre they need to put into it or if they can achieve the 21CN cost savings without spending that money I believe.

I'll watch this space though, as a customer who is rather tired of 2nd tier services for 1st tier prices and watching BT Wholesale's only innovations being finding new and exciting ways to wring the last few pence from their ISP customers (Capacity Based Charging and the extortionate Usage Based Charging).

The cable companies are slowly but surely getting there, BT are some poor people's (including mine! ) only hope for now of getting higher speed internet, and show no interest at all in what they are selling just how many they can sell it to.

Note: Even LLU lines require some assistance from BTWholesale, and require payments to BT. There is no escape

[Russ B]

Can't speak for BT Retail and their specific products, we don't get involved with what they're offering - but our systems are being updated to allow us to support 2Mb connections.

[altis]

BT to trial fibre-to-home:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/06/09/bt_fibre_trial/

BT to switch to end-to-end IP network by 2008
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/06/09/bt_ip_network/

Dismiss BT at your peril!!!

[ntl customer]

Unfortunately it seems that corporate greed is at the heart of all this. Other countries already have internet connections that are much faster than our (that's if you are lucky, live near the exchange and don't have a rubbish line ) 2Mb ADSL ones, and it seems rather shabby.

I am rather tired of seeing other countries with higher speeds and yet we still pay through the nose for the slowest of the lot.

[andygrif]

Originally Posted by Ignition

Ah but they involve spending large amounts of money and taking risks, something BT aren't fond of at all, they're quite a tight bunch with their wallets unless the gain is quick and palpable. Sadly innovation isn't high on the list at BT. Getting every penny out of the current set up is far higher on the list of things to do, just check out ADSLGuide.

Where's the risk for BT if they already have the product but are not letting us have it yet? My analogy is correct in that there are (probably) already better razors available, but Gillette will keep 'improving' existing ones first to extract further revenue from consumers.

The same can be said for a car manufacturer, which can be seen with the kit and safety improvements made to even entry-level cars nowadays.

This is good business practice, but I don't see people slagging Gillette or Ford off for doing it.

Originally Posted by ntl customer

Unfortunately it seems that corporate greed is at the heart of all this.

Does any company that makes a profit qualify for this description? Of course not. Business only works on the basis that it will (at some point) deliver a profit. Your local greengrocer is not going to sell you potatoes at a loss are they? Is corporate greed driving them too?

It's unfair (although somewhat fashionable) to constantly knock certain large companies, BT, Microsoft, Intel, etc., for delivering products that make money. If they cut back their service instead (a la NTL) would you be happy?

Originally Posted by ntl customer

Other countries already have internet connections that are much faster than our (that's if you are lucky, live near the exchange and don't have a rubbish line ) 2Mb ADSL ones, and it seems rather shabby.

We started with broadband a lot later than many of the countries you're talking about. It will come, but it will be in the future. Do you think the people in Croatia are moaning about the fact that other countries have broadband but they're just starting out with modems?

[Stuart C]

Originally Posted by andygrif

We started with broadband a lot later than many of the countries you're talking about. It will come, but it will be in the future. Do you think the people in Croatia are moaning about the fact that other countries have broadband but they're just starting out with modems?

True, however, IIRC, weren't BT (along with AT&T) one of the companies involved in the development of ADSL? Didn't they then licence the invention to other countries, while doing nothing with it in this country? TBH, they are still dragging their heels

I do think that if one organisation can be said to have held back Broadband in this country, it's BT.

[Ignition]

Originally Posted by altis

BT to trial fibre-to-home:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/06/09/bt_fibre_trial/

Which NTL did in Dolphin Square what 3 years ago maybe?

Originally Posted by altis

BT to switch to end-to-end IP network by 2008
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/06/09/bt_ip_network/

Dismiss BT at your peril!!!

The end to end IP network doesn't change the main issue of the ADSL connection between customer and exchange, which is where most of the limitations would be in theory, although I've heard a few mentions that BT have backhaul congestion problems supported by samknows.com and I guess this would be alleviated.

Of course the fact this end to end IP network will deliver cost savings of upwards of a billion a year probably helps as well. All the same though BT could deliver more than they are with the technology they have right now but choose not to.

I'm not going to discount BT, however their attitude since the beginning of their trials has always been to deliver the goods at as slow a pace as is required and to maximise profit as much as possible. They will always be happy with just keeping somewhere near the cablecos so long as the money keeps flowing.

The original ADSL triallists from 1997 were connected at 2Mbps. Up to 26Mbps technology was being worked on by BT at that time as well - they as part of a group helped ratify the ADSL and vDSL standards. Still the 2Mbps connections available are rebadged Office connections, and vDSL deployment hasn't even been talked about in public.

Russ - are you referring to a 2Mbps Home product or the 2Mbps Office product which has been around since the beginning of the commercial rollout? Do BT mind you discussing internal system upgrades in a public forum? I know of a couple of other BT employees at very least who use this board, one of them is cagey as hell about what BTW are up to.