Loyalty and Discounts

[Dan Handrahan]

Some advice needed please.

After having an on-demand problem (progs freezing at random intervals) VM got an engineer to call to look at the problem. As I have 2 boxes in the house (same problem and could have freezing of same prog at the same time) I waited for them to come. After an hour past the scheduled time and no engineer, I rang VM. An adviser told me someone would come, which was ok by me. He then told me (he was in the UK so I assume he was in Manchester) that looking at my account, it seems I had been paying too much for my package and should have had a bundle discount applied, and this seems to be going back to 2006. I suppose we all think we pay too much, but this came as a surprise to me as I like you all are "valued customers" of VM.

My bill listings were as follows

Telephone Line Rental £13.90
Talk Unlimited £ 8.00
TV Size XL £26.00
1 Additional V Box £15.00
Broadband Size L £26.00
Paper Bill Charge £1.50

Premium TV Channels £29.50

Total £119.90

which is not an inconsiderable amount, bearing in mind these are old V boxes.

Very helpful customer service guy says, in his opinion this is not right and applies a 6 months discount of £114 which equates to £19 per month. As a safeguard, CS people can only go back 6 months and he will get someone at VM head office to call me within 5-7 working days to discuss the rest of the time since 2006. I can't tell at this point if this is right or not, but it seems reasonable.

Engineer comes and says he can't find fault but will replace with newer boxes but has me only booked for one box and I will have to order a hub for my internet connection so it would be a waste of time to just replace one and in any case he would not know if this will fix the problem so he leaves with nothing done. I had told VM in the Philippines exactly the problem, on two boxes but the engineer has completely different information. He had said that Tivo boxes would solve the problem (the sales pitch i presume) so I get back and complain about the service and the upshot is 2 new Tivo (500's) and a superhub to be installed without charge the next day.

Credit where credit is due, they come next day and install the above. One box when turned on has an HDM1 connectivity error message which can only be rectified by unplugging and reconnecting HD connector which surely can't be right. Tucked away in the Help section of the Tivo box itself is a fix which says change the channels, turn box on and off etc but these things don't work. It is interesting that VM have this actually in the box itself so this must be an ongoing fault as there is nothing to say why this happens (any ideas welcome)........other box is fine and even at this stage I think Tivo is worth considering.

Nobody calls me from VM in the requested time and so I have to get on to the disconnection line (which I am told is the only dedicated UK VM line). After a lengthy call I am passed to a "resolutions manager" who then proceeds to tell me that this is my fault for not asking for a discount in the past and that I should consider myself lucky that they gave me six months and should be aware that as I now have Tivo, if I want to leave VM, then financial sanctions will be rigorously applied as a change of package results in a new 12 month contract and all the things that go with that. He was obdurate, talked over me and was in my opinion using bullying tactics to just accept what they had given me. I said, simply refund the overcharge and that will be that. I have had good service with VM and NTL before so I don't expect this attitude from VM to a "valued customer" One point was that about a year ago I changed my phone pack and had asked if my account was OK and was told yes, so in effect I had done what he asked me to do but when I put this to him, he refused to answer.

I run a small business and customer service is paramount. VM obviously do not worry about the rights and wrongs of a situation and would beat us with this stick and make it our fault.

I asked him for an address to try and escalate this and he delighted in telling me that if I contacted VM it would only be passed back to him so there was no point. The address he gave me was in Hook. I have to say he was disagreeable in the extreme and in my opinion VM should be ashamed that people at management level deal with loyal customers in this way.

I contacted CISAS who seemed most interested and have sent me an info pack and details of what to do. I also contacted OFCOM who although not being able to comment on individual cases per se, also thought that VM are required by law to send out a correct bill for goods and services provided and that I as customer should reasonably expect this to be correct.

My point here is that is this true that the onus is on VM to provide me with correct and up to date information. I know in my business this is something that I have to do under compliance rules and it is really only what you would expect.

Sorry to have taken up so much time but you guys seem to have the experience of these things and know what is right. My problem is VM's attitude and the means they use. Any thought greatly appreciated

Dan

[joglynne]

Hi Dan, I'm afraid that I am unsure what your next step should be but I am sure some one will be along soon to give their opinion on what has happened and what you are best doing next.

I didn't want to just read and run without saying welcome to the forum and to say that that I too would be most upset to have been treated in the way you have.

[BenMcr]

This may jump around a bit.

I'm not defending any rude or inconsiderate behaviour here, but unfortunately the root of the problem has started with the original agent you spoke to

They have obviously tried to do the right thing, but unfortunately have done the wrong thing.

If you have been with Virgin since 2006, it is quite possible that your monthly cost was correct based on the original services requested. Some changes, such as the phone package change you made, can be done 'as is' without affecting other service or their price. It's likely a broadband package increase, or both BB and phone change, may have resulted in a new bundle price (and new contract price)

If the agent felt that you could get a better deal, they should have made the change from the date of the conversation - backdating a credit based on an 'opinion' isn't what anyone within the company is supposed to do - any credits should be based on a specific issue, or evidence of any incorrect bill.

I can say with some certainty, that without evidence of an original overcharge, there is no way that you would have got a 'refund' all the way back to 2006. Personally I would say you shouldn't have even been refunded six months as you have not indicated of any issue with your price before the agent advised you of one.

Regarding the contract, with any new contract you have a cooling off period. With TiVo it's 28 days from install.

If, when speaking to the resolutions manager, you asked for the call to be escalated they should have done this or implying it won't help. By not doing so they have failed company process.

When you do make a complaint to Virgin any bad behaviour by agents will be followed up.

In regards to CISAS, they will certainly take a case on, but I believe you have to make sure you have definately registered a 'complaint', and it's been at least 8 weeks without a resolution before they generally get involved:

You can apply to use CISAS if:
• you have not been able to settle your complaint within eight weeks of first complaining to the company; or
• the company has referred you to the scheme

[Dan Handrahan]

Joglynne

Thank you for your reply and your welcome. I would want to be able to help others to get a resolution because I can't be the only one in this situation. Interestingly, CISAS gave me an address for VM in Manchester and OFCOM gave me an address in Swansea., so I suppose the "deadlock letter" request I have to send to VM will have to be sent to all 3 addresses unless someone knows better. At the end of the day, if I were a new customer, i'm sure VM would be frantic, but as an old customer they don't really care..............it's new money that firms are interested in. You only have to look at your bank or even the media companies themselves............new customers only. They did send an email asking how everything went and if there was anything they could do better and if in light of my experiences with VM, would I be likely to recommend Virgin in the near future. It wouldn't take long to work out my reply

Regards Dan

[BenMcr]

The Swansea address is the central postroom, however the Complaints team are based in Manchester

[thenry]

The discounts are automatically added to the account you don't have to ask. Not many agents bother telling people about the new contracts that are signed when upgrading so I don't see how this person, a manager can stand on moral high ground.

Your figures don't add up above. Your total £119.90 for your services - £114 = £5.90. Wheres £19 come from?

You've got upgraded to 2 TiVo's (£49.95 each) and a Superhub 30Mb (£30) ? The charges for these have not been added to your account? So you've saved money there.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by thenry

The discounts are automatically added to the account you don't have to ask.

Not quite correct that. All current bundles include a discount, so they are automatically included in any quoted price and are then added by an agent

However that wasn't the case back in 2006, and not all changes will include a bundle adjustment addition

---------- Post added at 15:07 ---------- Previous post was at 15:06 ----------

Originally Posted by thenry

Your figures don't add up above. Your total £119.90 for your services - £114 = £5.90. Wheres £19 come from?

6 months x £19 = £114

[thenry]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

Not quite correct that. All current bundles include a discount, so they are automatically included in any quoted price and are then added by an agent

However that wasn't the case back in 2006, and not all changes will include a bundle adjustment addition

---------- Post added at 15:07 ---------- Previous post was at 15:06 ----------


6 months x £19 = £114

I've always had a discount on my account whether it was the new bundle style or just the plain simple loyalty discount. Some kind of discount should of been added regardless right?

apologies I read the post wrong. The 6 months discount sucks.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by thenry

Some kind of discount should of been added regardless right?

As I said, if the agent had a better bundle price they could offer, they should have certainly done so.

But any new price should only have applied from that point onwards. Just because you have been paying a different price, doesn't entitle you to a refund - unless it was incorrect in the first place

[thenry]

which it was

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by thenry

which it was

There is no way that anyone can immediately see that a price incorrect for 5 years, and based on what was posted, I don't think it was

It may be higher that it could be *now* based on the current prices for the same services, but you can't then backdate that for the entire contract term, especially when that price wouldn't have applied for the whole time.

Telewest for instance never used discounts lines, they always charged the 'full' price for each service so the prices quoted in the first post would be completely correct for services taken out in 2006 - taking into account general price changes.

[thenry]

Its complicated now the agent has said what he said I agree but he would or should have been given some kind of compensation anyway whether it was backtracking discounts or an upgrade on a new price plan.

The OP seems a reasonable guy judging by his post.... if VM explain what you've said above and clearly amend everything, discounts, upgrades etc. then I'm sure he'll accept, ?

[BenMcr]

He has had £114 refunded when there was no actual reason to and he's had two TiVos and a SuperHub install 'for no charge'. So thats possibly another £100/£175 waived

Seems quite a good amout refunded to me

[thenry]

Indeed it is, now he needs his bill sorted out. The OP hasn't mentioned what the total will be after the discount period expires. Has a bundle discount been added?

[Dan Handrahan]

BenMcr

I liked your post more before you edited it !!!!

A couple of things to note here. The agent I spoke to advised me that I was paying too much for the services that I was getting. What he did was to correct the package price to reflect the new services i.e. £99.46 plus £1.00 for updating speed to 30 so the new price as of now is correct. The credit appeared the next day. As to whether he applied it or someone else did, I can't say and it is there. I assumed he did it. If VM's system did not allow it then it would not happen, but nevertheless it is there. Also how can I have known of an issue if I wasn't aware there was one. If you are VM staff in Manchester then again I must assume that a resolution manager is known to you. He told me that I "did qualify for the bundle discount but did not get it as I did not ask for it" (his words not mine)

I am assured by the point about escalating this as he said several times it would only come back to him and so the excercise "was pointless"

My view here is not so much that VM have hidden t & c's which state that if you want a discount you should ask them every time you get a bill as it is your responsibility to do so,as bad as that is in itself, this is about what a customer should reasonably expect from a service provider. These words are from the Consumer Protection Act and Sale of Goods Act. I should also expect that any bill sent should reflect the current rates that affect my bundle to be correct. VM can hide behind these things but common sense dictates this to be so. I dont see plastered over the tv ads, mail shots and ad infinitum emails that you can get it cheaper by asking them every month. It would make good PR if they did but then how many people would see that they are basically paying more than someone else with the same package. Just some stuff taken from VM's own website............"Having your voice heard"...............conflict resolution "based on the merits of the case" (notice merits not facts) and "fully committed to addressing fully and fairly in a reasonable time frame" There are many more but it all comes down to what is fair and reasonable which is all the consumer has to consider not about having to find out by some obtuse method that others are paying less for the same thing.

I have been with VM since they took over NTL and now find a bigger and bigger gap between what they say and what they do. This would be simple to resolve and would leave them with a much happier customer. There are cases I am sure where people try to con VM...........I am not, it s simply a case of them being fair to everyone.

Finally, as to the conduct of the manager in question, all things are subjective, but as an experienced manager and employer, I would never have the dismissive attitude he had and perhaps needs to attend a course that I give my staff so that he can see how customers respond to this type of counter productive practice.

Regards Dan

---------- Post added at 16:21 ---------- Previous post was at 16:13 ----------

BenMcr

The Tivo part has nothing to do with the overcharging for the bundle........It would seem to me that if you were going to do this then say why that is. I did not ask for this, this was offered to me by "Marco" in the Phillipines. Again if he did not have the authority to do this he could not have done this. This does not work on a quid pro quo basis

Regards Dan.

---------- Post added at 16:36 ---------- Previous post was at 16:21 ----------

thenry

Thanks for your input in this thread. My bundle price now reflects the services I get............this, in an obtuse way only adds insult to injury. I have thanked VM for the 6 months as it is only fair for me to do but when my phone package changed a year ago and then the price changed to reflect talk unlimited and I asked if I was paying the correct amount I was told yes. As I said VM manager was at a loss to explain this.

I would always say in this situation to anyone how would you feel if it was you

Regards Dan