Can we cancell all VM services 4 months after changing them?

[Dave9946]

Related to my other thread but a totaly seperate question. We basically need to cancell all VM services for at least 2 months due to an unexpected near £70 virgin mobile bill (we still need to keep the mobile but thats not part of the VM package) as we simply cannot afford to cover an unexpected £55 bill with the little uns birthday next month. So as a family we have no choice but to save that money in the next 2 months to make sure we can provide our daughter with some kind of birthday.

We had been on the same vm service\deal for what, about near 3 years before changing it back in january this year. So were well outside of the minimum contract period. When we changed to the current package 4 months ago I asked and had it confirmed that no it was not a new contracted period that we have to have for a minimum period but simply a changing of the current service. And at no point have we ever received any letter saying we are in a new minimum contracted period or has it ever been mentioned at the time of changing the package or since.

But I recall there being a thread on here over something similar a while back and some member claiming that it does'nt matter what might have been said by a sales rep\retentions rep on the issue and that when changing a package outside of a minimum period that still means it's a new contract that has to be kept for a minimum period?.

We dont intend to cancel untill after the weekend so would be greatfull of any input on the issue of if we can cancell for a couple of months without any penalty?.

[PeteLockwood]

dave, first of all, just tell them youwas told no new contract for changing the service, if they say otherwise tell them to bring up the recording... if they fail to do so, the customer is correct

i recently had this problem with virgin about downgrading my 50 meg internet, they tryed just about everything to convince me i was contracted..

[Dave9946]

Thanks for that as I thought that might be the case of contract claim and virgin will probably try everything but to pull the "contract" call up. We are still waiting for virgin to get back on another issue before we cancell for a while as we are still hoping they might deal with that first.

Other than that if they refuse to listen by citing contract we will simply cancell the direct debit (a month after sending notice by email and by recorded mail post). That way there will be proof we gave notice and they wont have a legal leg to stand on with a contracted call they cant provide.

[arcimedes]

Originally Posted by Dave9946

Thanks for that as I thought that might be the case of contract claim and virgin will probably try everything but to pull the "contract" call up. We are still waiting for virgin to get back on another issue before we cancell for a while as we are still hoping they might deal with that first.

Other than that if they refuse to listen by citing contract we will simply cancell the direct debit (a month after sending notice by email and by recorded mail post). That way there will be proof we gave notice and they wont have a legal leg to stand on with a contracted call they cant provide.

You should be aware that VM dont record every call so I wouldnt holod your hopes upexpecting you have doe all that is necessary to cancel the cancel the contract.

When I changed to 30meg and when getting Tivo I had a new contract sent to me each time so in Oxfordshire they seem on the ball as I have had in the last few months credits for service failures.

I would advise you contact them to explain your situation.

[Dave9946]

Thanks for that post it reminded me of another thread where it was mentioned they dont record all calls. But for calls relating to contract would assumingly be kept for a good 12 month at least?.

To say they dont record or store customers calls (more so with contract agrements) for a minimum period certainly wont help virgin over this matter if it gets disputed. If virgin cant provide a copy of the contract (the call) and thats the only copy then they would have very little legal right on there side I'd assume as they would knowingly have effectlvly "ripped up" the only proof of a legally binding contract. And as the only other thing is what is little more than notes on the system I cant see anything like that being legally useable as a contract in any way shape or form.

So if they destroy or fail to keep the contracted detail as a stored recorded call then anything else cannot be a contract no matter what it says as it has no agreement by the customer in writing or phone.

[Peter_]

Simply by paying your bill is proof enough that you have agreed to the Terms and Conditions of a new contact.

[Dave9946]

Originally Posted by Masque

Simply by paying your bill is proof enough that you have agreed to the Terms and Conditions of a new contact.

No it's not in any way shape or form that I can see. After a period of minimal fixed period are you seriously expecting a person to believe that carrying on means a new fixed period of more than 1 month at a time?.
As for all I know (which may well be limited) once a fixed period has ended then there is no new term of contract unless agreed but simply a rolling 1 month contract?.

So could you (or anyone) please explain (without citing the "it's company policy" line) what part of a bill it states that it is a form of a contract or under law is considdered a contract. As for as long as I can remember and recall a bill from virgin media has never ever stated it's deemed a new contract. Even at the time of changing the package the bill never made any such statement on it of being a new contract. If a bill had ever said that it was a contract and considdered that by virgin media they have never said so and it does not say so on there website.

[BenMcr]

Anytime Virgin recontract a (or all) service(s) they send out written confirmation. That they have done so is recorded to the account, alongside notes from an agent that should confirm that any new contract was advised

If for any reason, one of these is missing, there is probably room to dispute the recontract, and it would be dealt with on a case by case basis

[arcimedes]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

Anytime Virgin recontract a (or all) service(s) they send out written confirmation. That they have done so is recorded to the account, alongside notes from an agent that should confirm that any new contract was advised

If for any reason, one of these is missing, there is probably room to dispute the recontract, and it would be dealt with on a case by case basis

There is of course no guarantee that the customer will receive the new post as unless sent by Royal mail special delivery (or equivalent) but the contract will have existed after the order was accepted and if you have paid a bill showing the new charges then this would be very good evidence accepting the contract.

It is possible that you could cancel the services which you havent changed although this may not save much.

[Dave9946]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

Anytime Virgin recontract a (or all) service(s) they send out written confirmation. That they have done so is recorded to the account, alongside notes from an agent that should confirm that any new contract was advised

If for any reason, one of these is missing, there is probably room to dispute the recontract, and it would be dealt with on a case by case basis

Are you seriously expecting that (assuming thats VM's policy) to be in complience with the law of the land as to whats considered as proof of contract or agreement to be legally binding?. Assuming that is not your personal view of things of cause how can anything other that stored recordings or signed paper contract be sufficient?.

Any member of staff can put anything on a customers account and note to say a contract has been sent out when it's not or add something to package or price that a customer has not agreed to and say somethings been sent out. To not keep the only part of what the customer has asked for and agreed to is like to bin the page of a paper contract where the cutomer has signed to what has been offered as a service and price and then think they can add other details afterwards.

Correct me if i'm wrong but without a signature either in writing or verbal (and that verbal conversation kept and stored for a reasonable periosd)then there is never going to be enough balance of proof that a customer has ever agreed to anything after a minimal fixed period has ended?.

[arcimedes]

Originally Posted by Dave9946

Correct me if i'm wrong but without a signature either in writing or verbal (and that verbal conversation kept and stored for a reasonable periosd)then there is never going to be enough balance of proof that a customer has ever agreed to anything after a minimal fixed period has ended?.

I have checked with my wife who has a law qualification and the situation is that the contract exists when you order the service and the seller agrees to provide it. Nothing is required to be recorded for the contract to be valid.

In certain cases i.e buying a house documentaion is required.

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by Dave9946

No it's not in any way shape or form that I can see. After a period of minimal fixed period are you seriously expecting a person to believe that carrying on means a new fixed period of more than 1 month at a time?.
As for all I know (which may well be limited) once a fixed period has ended then there is no new term of contract unless agreed but simply a rolling 1 month contract?.

No with regards to taking out a new contract which if I recall is the subject of this thread and nothing to do with just continuing to pay for your existing services.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by Dave9946

Correct me if i'm wrong but without a signature either in writing or verbal (and that verbal conversation kept and stored for a reasonable periosd)then there is never going to be enough balance of proof that a customer has ever agreed to anything after a minimal fixed period has ended?.

Verbal confirmation would be assumed based on the fact that the services were changed and you did not query or challenge the change.

There is also an assumption that you, as a consumer, are not going to have something installed or changed without an informed and agreed choice.

Worst case that you don't receive written confirmation of the new contract is in the Distance Selling Regulations:

http://www.oft.gov.uk/about-the-oft/...g-regulations/

Clause 3.23

if you do not provide the required durable information at all, your consumer’s right to cancel ends after three months and seven working days counting from the day after the day on which the contract was concluded. This applies whether or not the consumer agrees that you can start the service before the cancellation period ends.

---------- Post added at 20:19 ---------- Previous post was at 20:12 ----------

But as I did try to say earlier just because you changed services does NOT mean you are automatically under a new contract.

So you are assuming you are under a minimum term contract when you may not be

[Dave9946]

Thanks for the replies but no I'm not assuming we either are or are not under a new contract but more asking for the situation of opinion from both sides. Responces seem to suggest there is a good chance the system may well show we was put on a new contract in january while others suggest we may not and if virgin do say that we are and cant pull the recording up then they may well let a despute from a determined customer go simply because they would cancel reguardless and call virgins bluff on the balance of probability of if a possbale lack of recording mean they have little legal chance against the customer.

Thanks for the info there BenMcr, but a dispute would not be about a change of service but simply the duration of that service?. In such a case as ours we simply changed the package, asked and told no new contract just a change of package. But does it make a difference if the package has been lowered of sorts or to the point where it's costing the customer less?.

As when we changed our package we ended up paying I think £5 per month less than we were previously and that is not a special offer price but the standard price for the services we currently have. A defence in out favour would be we have taken the unlimited phone off and just have the line rental (weekend calls only retaining the "freeview" channels just because we still have the phone line. The only other thing changed was the internet going from 20meg to 50meg. The lower price was becase we had been on the previous package so long that the regular prices for what we use now mean we were not saving anything but in fact paying more.

Now if we were put on a similar deal like all new (or very pushy for a better deal current customers do and get ) customers get like the half price for 6 months deal thats still getting offered then fair enough there would be no case to answer as thats a condition of the deal. But by simply agreeing to the regular price that is surely an fair assumption upon asking over the phone at the time of changing that it would mean no minimal period as we are paying the full asking price and not on a special offer price.

So if the package was changed and thats not the dispute and the price was lower and virgin was informed we might want to change the service again in several months and would any changes now (refering to jan) or later mean a new contract and being told no just a change of package\services as non contracted period would give us the flexability to change services later mean there is a reasonable assumption by us that we are not and were not put on any new minimal period contract for virgin to possably use the assumption that your paying so you are line?.

For the record we dont want to cancell as such but more like stop the services for 3 months due to other issues (which by pure coincidence is also related to virgin) without penalty or cancel if virgin dont allow service breaks without penalty because we have no financial choice and would certainly have little to loose either way.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by Dave9946

then they may well let a despute from a determined customer go simply because they would cancel reguardless and call virgins bluff on the balance of probability of if a possbale lack of recording mean they have little legal chance against the customer.

Actually it's more likely they will disconnect your services appropriate to the account state and then you would have to dispute any Early Disconnection Fees afterwards if you felt they have been incorrectly charged.

But to try to get back to the original query

If you are not under a new contract you can cancel your services at any time with 30 days notice, as per the terms and conditions. If you then restarted the services after 3 months it would be classed as a new contract with any appropriate minimum term (12 or 18 months) as applicable

However if you did change to 50Mbit, this used to start a minimum term for the broadband by default (although it may have changed), and may do for other services depending on the offer.

When it comes down to it you need to confirm with Virgin what the situation is, and then take it for there.