Technology for its own sake?

[Chris]

A thread inspired by a news story, but really about technology and progress in general.

Southern Trains has introduced new rolling stock on its routes, whose doors open automatically when the train stops at a station. The opening mechanism is controlled by a satellite uplink - the train determines when it is stopped at a station, as opposed to say at a red light, by referring to the satellite (presumably using GPS, although the BBC report is not specific).

The problem is, it doesn't work very well and some commuters have become so angry they are keeping a log of all the occasions the train has refused to open its doors and let them off at their station.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/s...es/3602494.stm

This has me wondering - is this technology for its own sake? What is the benefit of using satellite technology to open train doors when the driver could do it with a button on his dashboard? Are they not just inviting things to go wrong with an invention of truly Heath Robinson proportions?

As Scotty once said, "the more they overtake the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain..."

Is technology always the answer?

Your views please.

[Jon M]

I'm totally mystified as to the benefit of doing this, track the train via satallite fair enough, but open it's doors using it?? why??
Surely a sensor at the platform is the most reliable method if you want to automate the proceedure.

Reminds me of the Dilbert sales staff, "here's something useless that will degrade your business, but it looks pretty cool so it must be great".

[Stuart C]

Originally Posted by Chris T

A thread inspired by a news story, but really about technology and progress in general.

Southern Trains has introduced new rolling stock on its routes, whose doors open automatically when the train stops at a station. The opening mechanism is controlled by a satellite uplink - the train determines when it is stopped at a station, as opposed to say at a red light, by referring to the satellite (presumably using GPS, although the BBC report is not specific).

The problem is, it doesn't work very well and some commuters have become so angry they are keeping a log of all the occasions the train has refused to open its doors and let them off at their station.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/s...es/3602494.stm

This has me wondering - is this technology for its own sake? What is the benefit of using satellite technology to open train doors when the driver could do it with a button on his dashboard? Are they not just inviting things to go wrong with an invention of truly Heath Robinson proportions?

As Scotty once said, "the more they overtake the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain..."

Is technology always the answer?

Your views please.

Yes. This is Technology going too far. For the automatic doors on South Eastern trains, AFAIK, they use a much simpler system. The door mechanism is locked until the train passes a sensor near the station. This would seem to be a much simpler solution.

[Nugget]

I can't work out why the train companies keep doing this - instead of trying to show the world how innovative they are (in theory), why don't they concentrate on what they've got.

Instead of just cheesing people off when the system goes wrong and won't let people off the trains, why don't they try to sort out the miserable records that they've got for punctuality and reliability first?

Surely it would be better to sort out the 'grass roots' issues first, and then develop all this new technology.

[Paul]

Originally Posted by Chris T

A thread inspired by a news story, but really about technology and progress in general.

Southern Trains has introduced new rolling stock on its routes, whose doors open automatically when the train stops at a station. The opening mechanism is controlled by a satellite uplink - the train determines when it is stopped at a station, as opposed to say at a red light, by referring to the satellite (presumably using GPS, although the BBC report is not specific).

The problem is, it doesn't work very well and some commuters have become so angry they are keeping a log of all the occasions the train has refused to open its doors and let them off at their station.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/s...es/3602494.stm

This has me wondering - is this technology for its own sake? What is the benefit of using satellite technology to open train doors when the driver could do it with a button on his dashboard? Are they not just inviting things to go wrong with an invention of truly Heath Robinson proportions?

As Scotty once said, "the more they overtake the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain..."

Is technology always the answer?

Your views please.

Maybe they are just testing the waters and the technology for driver free mass transportation?
If they were to rely on triggers on the tracks at stations then who can say that vandals may not move them down the tracks so that the doors don't suddenly open while the trains are travelling at speeds?
Rely on the driver to open them and you are relying on someone sitting in the cab, more and more companies are pushing to remove human interfacing/ control from their services.
At some stage we will be taken from A-B by computer controlled transportation and given the problems with many automated systems in use today that is a worrying prospect lol

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Paul

Maybe they are just testing the waters and the technology for driver free mass transportation?
If they were to rely on triggers on the tracks at stations then who can say that vandals may not move them down the tracks so that the doors don't suddenly open while the trains are travelling at speeds?
Rely on the driver to open them and you are relying on someone sitting in the cab, more and more companies are pushing to remove human interfacing/ control from their services.
At some stage we will be taken from A-B by computer controlled transportation and given the problems with many automated systems in use today that is a worrying prospect lol

It'll be a long, cold day in hell before I get on a train, or any other mode of transport, that is driven by a computer without human supervision. Computers do not have the intelligence or adaptability (common sense!) to take responsibility for 100 tons of steel and aluminium hurtling along a railway at 100 miles an hour.

[Mr_love_monkey]

Originally Posted by Paul

Maybe they are just testing the waters and the technology for driver free mass transportation?

Docklands Light Railway is driver free, and used to be guard free (IIRC) - but because of problems with it, they had to employ guards to be on the train to open and close the doors...

Originally Posted by Towny

It'll be a long, cold day in hell before I get on a train, or any other mode of transport, that is driven by a computer without human supervision. Computers do not have the intelligence or adaptability (common sense!) to take responsibility for 100 tons of steel and aluminium hurtling along a railway at 100 miles an hour.

I remember a friend of mine, who worked for one of the companies that dealt with the computer systems for the jubilee line extension... he was on one of the DLR trains with one of the other companies system guys, and he was updating the software on the train, whilst it was moving (and carrying passengers), via laptop on an IR link... the DLR doesn't go that fast, but it scared my friend enough

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Mr_love_monkey

Docklands Light Railway is driver free, and used to be guard free (IIRC) - but because of problems with it, they had to employ guards to be on the train to open and close the doors...

I was going to object that driverless trains like the DLR move relatively slowly, but apparently they can get up to about 55mph I am never going to go on the DLR.

[Paul]

Originally Posted by Mr_love_monkey

Docklands Light Railway is driver free, and used to be guard free (IIRC) - but because of problems with it, they had to employ guards to be on the train to open and close the doors...

As far as I am aware, the guards are there mainly because people hated travelling with no human in charge of the train. It scared them to think that no-one was there to avert an accident if the computer systems failled. At the start they may have had door problems but having used the DLR a couple of times this year the doors seem ok now.

I remember a friend of mine, who worked for one of the companies that dealt with the computer systems for the jubilee line extension... he was on one of the DLR trains with one of the other companies system guys, and he was updating the software on the train, whilst it was moving (and carrying passengers), via laptop on an IR link... the DLR doesn't go that fast, but it scared my friend enough

Why? He may have just been loading new settings into the system, not every update would require restarting the whole system and therefor mean the train running without controls

[Paul]

Originally Posted by Chris T

I was going to object that driverless trains like the DLR move relatively slowly, but apparently they can get up to about 55mph I am never going to go on the DLR.

It is weird at first if you sit up the front but the automatic braking controls etc all worked well when I was on the DLR last lol
I've jsut looked at the DLR site and they are stating

The Passenger Service Agent also closes the doors when the central control system indicates that the train is ready to depart, first ensuring that it is safe to do so.

So the public answer is that they are there to safely close the doors on the train still. Wonder how you apply for that job

[Mr_love_monkey]

Originally Posted by Paul

Why? He may have just been loading new settings into the system, not every update would require restarting the whole system and therefor mean the train running without controls

He worked with these people, and saw what their code/updates did to systems.. at one point all the ticket barriers shut down during testing, after an update .

As an side from what he was telling me the computer systems for the extension are really quite good - to the extent where they could shut down a single ticket barrier from the central control office, instantly - so he always threatened to be watching the station feeds, and shutting down any barrier I tried to use....

[Paul]

Originally Posted by Mr_love_monkey

He worked with these people, and saw what their code/updates did to systems.. at one point all the ticket barriers shut down during testing, after an update .

All the more reason to be sure that if they are sitting beside him they aren't going to tamper/ adjust anything that may impact their ability to breathe

As an side from what he was telling me the computer systems for the extension are really quite good - to the extent where they could shut down a single ticket barrier from the central control office, instantly - so he always threatened to be watching the station feeds, and shutting down any barrier I tried to use....

Ah good man, keep the rabble off the trains
Back on topic though how long have auto-pilots helped to keep us in the air??

I'm a true luddite and I think technology, whilst maybe making our lives easier, is not making us that much happier.

I know this might sound weird but it seems that happiness is our success divided by our expectations. The more successful we are, our expectations raise proportionally so our happiness hasn't hardly changed at all.

With the advances in science, etc, has knowledge really made us happier? OK, yeah, of course all the medical treatments are beneficial, etc. But most people now believe that the emergence of our life was the result of random particles colliding and we are just here by chance and that everything is meaningless. We have no spiritual side, and we take everything that technology does for granted. No wonder we, as a species, have never been more depressed.

[Mr_love_monkey]

Originally Posted by Paul

All the more reason to be sure that if they are sitting beside him they aren't going to tamper/ adjust anything that may impact their ability to breathe

Yeah right, If I had a pound for everytime a developer/sys admin guy said to me 'Trust me, it will be fine....'

Originally Posted by Paul

Ah good man, keep the rabble off the trains

OI! who you calling 'rabble'

Originally Posted by Paul

Back on topic though how long have auto-pilots helped to keep us in the air??

Good point - but how much of that is public awareness? - I wonder if the majority of people realise how little a pilot actually has to do? - and how much the autopilot does? - it always used to be that the pilot was there for takeoff and landing, I don't think that is true anymore

[Paul]

Originally Posted by Mr_love_monkey

Yeah right, If I had a pound for everytime a developer/sys admin guy said to me 'Trust me, it will be fine....'

LOL yeah I know but at least you get to laugh in his face as it all goes wrong

OI! who you calling 'rabble'

Well I can only go by your friends opinion of you and if you aren't good enough to use the DLR.... Often wondered why peoples tickets are refused for no reason on those barriers

Good point - but how much of that is public awareness? - I wonder if the majority of people realise how little a pilot actually has to do? - and how much the autopilot does? - it always used to be that the pilot was there for takeoff and landing, I don't think that is true anymore

Yep there are planes out there with auto-pilots that can auto-land and take off so that the planes can still operate in low visibility that the pilot would struggle with. Think it would be a worrying day when they try to remove the human pilot from the plane though Think it would face the same problem as the driverless trains lol