Everyone seems to love Firefox. Everyone, that is, except for this man...

[Ramrod]

Link

Interesting article. To sum it up:

In other words, the reason Firefox doesn't face the threats IE faces is that they aren't the browser used by 95% of consumers. That's a bit like avoiding the threat of terrorism by moving to Pitcairn Island. It works for a while, but if everyone has the same idea, your safety is compromised.



I like the fact that IE, and Microsoft, face real competition. What I don't like is the insistence that Web sites adapt to the upstart browser, not vice-versa. Remember, Microsoft has been down this path before, facing down a Netscape browser with a market share almost equal to that held by IE today. They chose to make IE fit the code developers produced, however non-standard, so that compatibility with IE involved little extra work. I see no reason why we shouldn't expect the same of alternative browsers such as Firefox.

[Chris]

Not sure where that guy is coming from ...

Firstly, the issue of facing threats. The standard defence against Microsoft is that its products are only compromised as often as they are because they are the popular products and there to be shot at by the majority. Everybody else's stuff would fare as badly, so the story goes, if only it got the same level of attention. This may or may not be true, but considering it is complete supposition, totally undemonstrated as a theory, I'm not comfortable with the frequency it gets trotted out. It is a lazy excuse for a defence of Microsoft that, tellingly, doesn't even attempt to defend MS, but instead, without proof, attepts to pull everyone else down to their level. If you stick to the cold hard facts, Microsoft has a lamentable security record, and a poor corporate reputation for security that is derived from more than just the number of patches it has to issue.

Second, over the issue of non-standard code (and I will need some technical back-up or rebuttal here, because now I'm supposing a little): How can MS develop a browser to take account of the use of non-standard code? With Netscape in the pre-eminent position, non-standard code simply couldn't work. You write non-standard code, no-one can read your pages, so you don't write non-standard code in the first place. In fact, given that Hypertext was invented, more or less, by one man, the concept of non-standard code is, in the early days of the web at least, totally absurd. There can only be non-standard code if someone *creates* it, and then allows it to function in certain browsers but not others. To put it simply, M$ doubly shafted Netscape firstly by *creating* the non-standard code, which would only work on IE, then bundling IE with Windows, then by marketing it aggressively at the IT community.

[Chris]

This bit made me laugh though:

Conclusion
Firefox is certainly the best alternative browser I've come across. It makes Opera, its ally of convenience in a war against the common enemy Microsoft, seem downright lobotomized (cue Opera fans to burn me in effigy).

Where's Basa?

[kronas]

IE is losing market share in an article i saw yesterday, however if firefox or another browser was as prominent as IE is it would see itself being exploited for vulnerabilities, indeed a few flaws on firefox have been found, due to its rising popularity, MS code is rife amongst computers around the world, its only natural that the most exploits are found on it in comparison to other browsers, i believe firefox's rise to eat in to MS's market share will ultimately make it a prime target for hackers.

[scrotnig]

I like Opera as well as Firefox and have both installed in their most up to date form. In fact, I'm a bit geeky in that I love playing with them and testing them, which at the end of the day is what pre-release and beta versions are all about. I don't think it's as complete or as user friendly as Firefox is, though the latest preview release is well on the way.

Mind you, Firefox still has some issues. I am currently posting from IE, since the 11-tab Firefox window I had running simply stopped displaying pages, giving timeout errors. Firefox will now not work on this PC again until I reboot...yet IE and Opera do, so it isn't a connection problem. I've had this before, and indeed others report it on the Mozilla site, so although very close, they are not quite 'there' yet.

[Richard M]

1st point:
The difference between M$ and Mozilla.org is that Mozilla pay top security people to look for bugs and other exploits.
Microsoft's usual policy is to wait a month before acknowledging the problem then issue a patch a few months after.
Mozilla bugs are usually fixed the same day and by it's nature it is more secure - it doesn't use ActiveX and is not highly tied to the host OS.

2nd point:
"What I don't like is the insistence that Web sites adapt to the upstart browser, not vice-versa."
Umm excuse me but what exactly has been going on for the last 4 years?
IE only sites saying "your browser is not supported", invalid HTML/CSS, sloppy code (because IE will render almost anything you throw at it), proprietary plug ins, multiple security problems etc etc.
Microsoft should support the standards the web was built for, now what would happen if M$ modified TCP/IP to their own liking? Chaos, that's what - and all Unix/Linux/Mac/Solaris users would be left out - it would separate the internet into M$/non M$ and that would be ridiculous.
Well, it's already happened - IE browser only code has separated the web users into two groups but now, we're fighting back with a vengeance - why do you think the Firefox slogan is "take back the web"?
We will take back our computers, for years ravaged by Spyware and Malware.
We will take back our web pages as they were supposed to be - the same on every view port.
We will take back our privacy rights by choosing what software is installed on our computers.

The MSHTML (IE) engine hasn't been updated since 2001 and runs in IE, Outlook, Outlook Express, Office and many other apps and they probably have root access to any file, folder or drive they choose.
What's more, you probably don't even know about where the MSHTML engine is being used, it's even used to display the Windows Help files - anyone remember the SQL worm "Slammer"? Loads of people were affected, even banks and it brought large parts of the net down because they didn't realise that an SQL server was running as part of their M$ app.
Firefox is updated every day and now even supports partial CSS3, IE even manages to screw up CSS1.

OK, rant over for now.

[basa]

Originally Posted by Chris T

...........

Where's Basa?

I'm here

I see little mileage in arguing with this misguided soul, (that is John Carroll not you Chris)......(I assume he is referring to himself as "this man" ).

[basa]

Originally Posted by Richard M

<snip>.............We will take back our privacy rights by choosing what software is installed on our computers.

OK, rant over for now.

Umm ..... if (as I suppose) you use Windows XP you are already bowing and scraping to M$ with activation of XP and Office !!!! Plus you have to buy a new copy for each PC you use.

I (through being so poor) have to continue with 98SE which at least I can install on any PC I care to and don't need M$'s permission to do so !!

Bifta doesnt like it!

[Bifta]

Originally Posted by gary_580

Bifta doesnt like it!

Correct, and Bifta isn't foolish enough to believe that a fair indication of browser share is available to view at W3. Let's think about it rationally for a minute, what sort of people visit that site? Technical people, a small cross section of the population, a small cross section that would have no problem trying out a new browser (no matter how rubbish it is). I've looked at some slightly fairer stats, on an Estate Agents site that pulls all sorts of different people and my stats differ hugely.

Apparently this is based on 3,898,985 page views, 80,788,375 hits.

Firefox has apparently got 0.4% browser share, based on fairer statistics.

[Jon M]

** Caution, dodgy metaphor coming up **

Firefox is like Ikea furniture... you have to be a bit more patient when setting it up, but you pay a lot less for it and you feel like you've accomplished something when you get it all put together.

IE is like the over indulgent, over soft, comfy sofa... nice to use but very bad for your back and gives off toxic fumes when it catches fire

[Halcyon]

Well I know I'l be sticking with Firefox.
IE should be renamed to Crash IE as it used to crash my system constantly.
IE looks like it was built for a three year old, and just feels relitevely crappy.
Yeah so I cant go into detail about its bad points right now but its Friday morning and so bleh.
But yeah, tabbed browsing in Firefox is only one of its many advantages and easier to navigate interface. Mozilla all the way.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Bifta

Correct, and Bifta isn't foolish enough to believe that a fair indication of browser share is available to view at W3. Let's think about it rationally for a minute, what sort of people visit that site? Technical people, a small cross section of the population, a small cross section that would have no problem trying out a new browser (no matter how rubbish it is). I've looked at some slightly fairer stats, on an Estate Agents site that pulls all sorts of different people and my stats differ hugely.

Apparently this is based on 3,898,985 page views, 80,788,375 hits.

Firefox has apparently got 0.4% browser share, based on fairer statistics.

Can't argue with statistics like that ... although let's not forget we're still talking about Beta software here. Firefox doesn't launch officially until next week, and the community is planning to support that launch with a big PR push. You can't expect Firefox to truly break out of the IT geek community until it gets this wider exposure. It will be interesting to see whether the stats from that same website are any different by, say, next May.

[Bifta]

Originally Posted by Chris T

Can't argue with statistics like that ... although let's not forget we're still talking about Beta software here. Firefox doesn't launch officially until next week, and the community is planning to support that launch with a big PR push. You can't expect Firefox to truly break out of the IT geek community until it gets this wider exposure. It will be interesting to see whether the stats from that same website are any different by, say, next May.

I'll be sure to let you know. Of course, no-one (apart from Microsoft) has any idea what their plans for IE will be over the next 6 months, so we'll have to wait and see.

[SOSAGES]

firefox sucks and thats that...