New Light Fittings

[Pia]

I thought i'd have a play about with some new light fittings i've had for ages but never got around to fitting, but i'm confused....

Basically, the instructions on the new lights say there should be 3 wires, but when i opened up the existing one there seems to be loads!!

But i unscrewed 2 brown ones from the old light fitting and they were then hanging loose, but there's also a thick green one that wasn't attached, it's just there

So... what's the crack with this? Don't worry i'm not about to go killing myself or anything it's all in the name of education

I took a couple of pics, though they are a bit pants since there was no artificial light and i did take them on my scratched camera phone lol

edit: having only just looked at the pics properly, they are VERY pants

[Paul]

If you look on the ceiling rose closely you may find symbols or words on the block where the wires are screwed into indicating what the wiring "groups" are. They will normally be grouped in neutral, live, earth and common and they will need to stay in those groupings to work. The thick green one is likely to be the earth cable and should have been connected somewhere on the block, if not you may have to connect it directly to your fitting.
The wires you unscrewed are the wires you need to use again on the new light fitting, should have looked where they went to as one should be your live and one should be your neutral.
(One of the reasons you have more than 3 wires is I suspect because you have more than one light fitting on the same circuit or the circuit has more than one switch operating it. Also you will have a loop wire that connects the switches.)
One easy way is to keep the wires in their groups on the blocks they are in and then use the brown wire coming from the end of each block as your connection to the light fitting. I would expect there to be raised lettering above each group of cables saying Live, Neutral, L, N etc.

[marky]

Pia, please dont play with it, if theres a 3rd wire it could be a permanant live or earth.
Your old fitting is a simple rose, it doesnt matter which way the two wires go in, but the new one does

[Escapee]

The green wire is an earth to be used if the light is a metal type requiring an earth. Older house wiring lighting circuits (most) often didn't have this earth, as most people just used a light fitting for a standard bulb and a shade. This meant there was no metal to becaome live and dangerous, these days people tend to have fancy metal fittings or even cieling fans, hence the requirement for an earth connection.

You are unable to have a red and black wire at the ceiling rose, because the supply comes via the wall switch. This is always something that has puzzled me about house wiring, and has never seemd right. Especially when you see a red and black from the switch to the ceiling rose.

You should see three cables coming into the rose. One will be the radial cicuit in, one the radial cicuit out and the last one will be the switching wire.

Each of the three cables will have three conductors. One red, One black and a coper one with no sleeve.

You will see that two of the three core cables will have there red and black wires together (ie red to red - black to black)

Three three uncovered coper wires (one from each three core cable) should all be together, This is the earth conductor

The thirs 3 core wire will be the switching wire. The red wire should meet up with the other pair of reds and the black wire (should) have a red sleve around it to indicate the switching return.

Unless you know exactly what you are doing I dont recomend you touch it.

This may help :-

[ian@huth]

When we had our house built we specified Maestro ceiling roses throughout. These are brilliant as light fittings can be taken down for cleaning or replacement without touching the main wiring. I would recommend fitting them in place of existing ceiling roses especially when fitting a new lighting unit. The Maestro is in two parts, one screwed to the ceiling and connected to the lighting circuit, the other part has the light fitting attached and slides into the fixed part.

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/LDMC11A.html has a picture of one. I have seen the white ones on ebay for £3.50 each.

[LSainsbury]

Go on Pia - get a screw-driver stuck in there!!!!!

[Pia]

Originally Posted by Paul

The wires you unscrewed are the wires you need to use again on the new light fitting, should have looked where they went to as one should be your live and one should be your neutral.

What happens if i put the wrong one in? I was thinking in this case trial and error perhaps?

(One of the reasons you have more than 3 wires is I suspect because you have more than one light fitting on the same circuit or the circuit has more than one switch operating it. Also you will have a loop wire that connects the switches.)

There is 2 light switches in the room, and two lights, but both switches control both lights if that makes sense....

It can't be that hard, i'm sure i'll manage it once i've read this thread 300 times and took notes

---------- Post added at 19:28 ---------- Previous post was at 19:27 ----------

And i was thinking, i thought that rose thing would come out since the light fitting is meant to be flush, but it looks like it's there to stay?

[Graham M]

I installed 2 sets of spot lights in our kitchen, and I basically installed them over the two Bare ceiling roses as the spotlight base was huge, the simplest way to do it and no chance of any short circuits as the base of the spot lights was all plastic.

[Paul]

Originally Posted by Zeph

I installed 2 sets of spot lights in our kitchen, and I basically installed them over the two Bare ceiling roses as the spotlight base was huge, the simplest way to do it and no chance of any short circuits as the base of the spot lights was all plastic.

Exactly, re-use it if you can since it is already correctly wired.
Pia, did you take a close look at the plastic rose on the ceiling? I'd be willing to bet there are markings on it that state which wires are which As to taking the rose out, break up the plastic sections if needed (but don't if you can get away with it) and wrap the metal connecting blocks in insulating tape to make sure no live metal can come into contact with anything it shouldn't do. DO NOT do this until AFTER you figure out what wires are what though You can then remove the remains of the ceiling rose and push the wiring into the ceiling void once it is all connected up properly and taped well to insulate it. Don't make too big a hole pushing the wiring into the void though as you will want to have some ceiling left to screw the new fitting onto.

[Pia]

Originally Posted by Paul

Pia, did you take a close look at the plastic rose on the ceiling? I'd be willing to bet there are markings on it that state which wires are which As to taking the rose out, break up the plastic sections if needed (but don't if you can get away with it) and wrap the metal connecting blocks in insulating tape to make sure no live metal can come into contact with anything it shouldn't do. DO NOT do this until AFTER you figure out what wires are what though You can then remove the remains of the ceiling rose and push the wiring into the ceiling void once it is all connected up properly and taped well to insulate it. Don't make too big a hole pushing the wiring into the void though as you will want to have some ceiling left to screw the new fitting onto.

I'm gonna have to read that a few more times LOL... Is this the hard option or the only option? The fitting is designed to be flush to the ceiling though...


Right, just looked at the rose thingy, and this is what it's got...

There's the green one, which seems to have 3 copper coloured wires inside it, which wasn't attached to anything.

Then there's a little section with 2 holes that says "Line"- that's got 1 red and 1 brown wire in.

A section that doesn't say anything, 3 holes, but 1 is empty, and 2 red wires.

And the last says "Neutral", it's got 3 holes, one has 2 black wires in, one has 1 black wire, and one has 1 brown wire.

[Tuftus]

Pia,

The easiest way to do this would be to take a picture of your existing wiring and a picture of your new fittings connections.

This is what I did and showed it to one of the many Qualified Electricians where I work, he then edited each picture to show what it was and most importantly where it should go in to the new fitting.

I just searched for the edited pics but I must have deleted them, they may still be on my work PC, it they are I will post them from work tomo, as it does look the same as yours.

*** DISCLAIMER ***

If in doubt, consult a qualified sparky!!!

[Pia]

Originally Posted by Tuftus

*** DISCLAIMER ***

If in doubt, consult a qualified sparky!!!

Thanks Tufty, i'll try take some pics but as i say my phone camera is not at it's best and it's all i've got to work with at the mo!

And i can't afford a sparky, if i could i'd get one out to start with!

Originally Posted by Pia

Thanks Tufty, i'll try take some pics but as i say my phone camera is not at it's best and it's all i've got to work with at the mo!

And i can't afford a sparky, if i could i'd get one out to start with!

Its a shame you live so far away or I would be able to help you.

If you can get some good pictures I am sure I can explain what to do and help you out.

Its very important that you double check what you have done and make sure you pull the fuse and keep it with you or trip the breaker before you touch ANYTHING.

We dont want you posting here with sticking up hair and smoke coming out of your ears do we ?

[Tuftus]

Originally Posted by Pia

Thanks Tufty, i'll try take some pics but as i say my phone camera is not at it's best and it's all i've got to work with at the mo!

And i can't afford a sparky, if i could i'd get one out to start with!

Take the pics and I will do my best to get one of my Sparky colleagues to look at it for you tomo?

I will PM you who I work for...