My problem with my company

[Sage013]

Apologies before hand for this post but I need to get this of my chest so to speak. (and as an after thought after writing the post, apologies for the length of it)

I've been off work now for 5 months with a back injury. I got a call from my HR department today and, in a very casual tone, I get informed they have made an error with my pay and I should have been on half pay for the last two months, not full pay which they have already paid me. It was their error because someone left the department and nobody bothered to update my details on their system.

So, I'm then informed that for a further month I'll be on half pay only and then it goes to nothing. "That's fine" I say "I should be back in two weeks". Then she just casually slips out that I'll have to repay the money I was incorrectly paid, which is £1,660!!! (No idea where they get that figure from as two months half pay certainly doesn't come up to that)

Seeing as my job is dealing with difficult situations at a moments notice, I calmly pointed out that it's their error so why should I have to pay the money back. In fact, where do they think I'm going to find that sort of money from!!! Whilst half pay doesn't cover my bills each month, if I been told a week or two afterwards it wouldn't of been a problem, but TWO MONTHS later. The money has already been spent!!

Next response "We just need to sort out an arrangement so you can pay it back over a few months". A few months!!! I get £300 a month to live on, how can they expect me to live on £50 a month!!!

Going in to total work mode as if I was dealing with a difficult solicitor/jobsworth, I thanked her for informing me I'm now on half pay for the next month and that any arrangement will have to be discussed when I return to work, which I expect will be about two weeks. The response, I get informed of the policy for sickness pay, which I know inside out already. As soon as I hear this response I know she's gone in to defensive mode and I'll not get sensible discussion thereafter. Before ending the call I advised her that I do not think it's fair that I have to suffer due to their error, no one informed me I was on half pay and I wasn't given any indication to think I was. The response, another repeat of the company policy followed by something about not receiving sick certificates and the reason I only got any pay was because of her accepting my phone calls in good faith that I was not able to work. I then pointed out that when receiving treatment from a private medical consultant that they couldn't sign me off work, only a GP will do that when he has received full details from the consultant. If you want details then it's the difference between a GP completing a Med 3 sick form and a Med 5 sick form. A Med 5 form is back dated by a GP, the Med 3 Form is only done for future dates. After this she says asks me to inform her when I return to work so that we can arrange a meeting to discuss a payment arrangement. Seeing as I was about to go off on a tirade of the legal position on the matter, I politely finished the call.

I immediately arranged for my manager (or ex-manager as he's been promoted and is now the boss of my yet to be appointed manager (apparently I run my department now, although I've been doing that for two years now anyway )) to call me and duly received the call in half an hour. I wasn't expecting any opinions from him, I just hoped he would look in to the matter, which he was more than happy to do. Unfortunately the time by then was 5.20pm and time ran out to sort anything out so, I now have to spend a weekend fuming before I can go any further!!

So, where do I stand on this? Well, from an uneducated company point of view (I'm referring to the individuals involved at present, not the company as a whole) I have no choice in the matter and they can deduct X sum from my pay without my authorisation. I'm not certain whether this s correct but, I have a feeling it is. However, from my point of view I may have the law on my side if things get nasty. If I had to take the company to court (and I hope I don't as it would make my working life a nightmare) I would have to demonstrate that I had no responsibility for the situation what's so ever. I'll try to explain what I'd need to demonstrate, apologies if I come across sounding like a lawyer but, I'm trying to translate legal jargon.

In order to show that an overpayment is not recoverable, then the employee must demonstrate three things. Firstly, it must be shown that the overpayment was the fault of the company and not the employee. Secondly, it must have been reasonable for the employee not to know that they were being overpaid. Thirdly, the employee must have acted to their disadvantage or the assumption that the payment of salary was correct (for example by spending the money!). The most common difficulty for employees is the second condition since it is often obvious when an overpayment has occurred. It is not acceptable for an employee to assume that they have received a substantial increase in pay unless there is some reason to believe that this is the case.

My views on the three points:

1 - My company has already admitted it was their error so I'm fine on this.

2 - The difficult one! Now, why did I assume the last two months payments were correct? I wasn't informed that I wouldn't receive full pay, even though I expected it due to knowing company sickness policy. A payslip turned up just before xmas for my December pay and I had been paid in full. I initially thought this could be wrong but, and here's the big point, every three months I get a bonus payment based on each yearly quarter. I wasn't at work for the last month of the third quarter (September) so, when I got my payslip in October I expected not to get much, which I didn't. This led me to believe my absence from work had already been taken in to consideration with my pay. Therefore. was it not correct of me to think that further payslips would be correct? January's payslip would normally contain my bonus for the last quarter of the previous year. January's payslip duly turned up and I had zero bonus, as expected. I therefore think that my absence from work has been taken into consideration, as previously. Ok, so I appreciate I never discussed this with my company but, in all contact with them no one ever raised the subject, so why should I think any different to what I did!

3 - The money HAS already been spent, I don't have a choice. I don't have an overdraft or savings, once the bills come out my account I only have a few hundred pounds to spend. If I could save money I would. I accepted the pay I got in good faith and didn't feel there's was any reason to query it i.e. point 2.

My current line of thinking, bearing mind I haven't had an further feedback from work, and will not until Monday (hopefully), is that I'll contest this issue as long as it takes and take it as high up as possible. It's more of a threat to be honest as I don't want to lose my job over it. However, working for the biggest global corporation on the planet gives me a lot of options, although riddled with bureaucracy. I can easily cost the company more than it would to write off the debt by using up a huge amount of person time. From a commercial view point, which I and my execs have to consider daily (when I'm there), this is a no brainier of a decision. The trouble is that HR departments are always full of jobsworths with a high opinion of themselves!!

I'd really appreciate anybody's opinions on my current problem. Am I right to fight the company I work for, or should I just accept that I have to pay back money I don't and wil not have?

[DocDutch]

hmmm my feeling on this is if :

a. the reason you done your back in is due to work, they wouldnt be in their right to take any monies of you.

b. as the HR person admitted its their fault they dont have the right if I'm correct to take the dosh of you

c. if you fight it you'll prolly have 99% chance of winning any case brought against them.

but then again the hard 1 is do you like your job, is your job worth keeping if you take them to court if this all turns nasty.

if you like the job and are happy then what I would do is just get a loan or something and pay it off instantly. and especially if you had a "promotion" then your pay will increase with it.

so my honest opinion (and thankfully havent been in this situation before) is stay and see what happens after talking to your old boss

[Sage013]

Thanks for the reply levig.

a) I broke my spine 17 years ago and it's permanently messed up (pics of scan available if you really want to see ). My company are aware of the problem and accept it, although I imagine they're not happy about it.

b) I think they do have a right, legally, based on certain circumstances. What I have to prove is that none of these circumstances apply in this particular instance.

c) Based on the information I have so far then yes, I completely agree.

I actually like my job and am quite happy to spend the rest of my career doing it (only another 29 years to go ) . I don't have much choice due to my physical situation, I'm not exactly desirable employment material. As for promotion, it'll never happen. Who wants a manager that could disappear for days/months at any given moment. I've done well to get where I am and paid what I do. It's always been in the back of people's minds when considering me for a job and it's now permanently in the forefront. I don't have any qualms about this as I'd be exactly the same. I wouldn't put anyone in a senior position at a company knowing they could be away for months on end, or never back at all.

I really appreciate your comments and will be waiting for further developments before I make any final decisions.

[Strzelecki]

What does your employee handbook say (if you have one)? I know mine says that if there is an overpayment for whatever reason then they have every right to claim it back and if it's a substantial amount that I would notice and I don't tell them about it then it gross misconduct and I'm fired. Harsh and I know it's hard to get them to admit to underpayment! If yours says something similar and you sign the contract then there isn't a lot you can do really, always worth seeking some sort of legal advice though otherwise you might be off sick again with work related stress!

[nffc]

Originally Posted by Strzelecki

What does your employee handbook say (if you have one)? I know mine says that if there is an overpayment for whatever reason then they have every right to claim it back and if it's a substantial amount that I would notice and I don't tell them about it then it gross misconduct and I'm fired. Harsh and I know it's hard to get them to admit to underpayment! If yours says something similar and you sign the contract then there isn't a lot you can do really, always worth seeking some sort of legal advice though otherwise you might be off sick again with work related stress!

Yeah mine says the same must be the same book

[Sage013]

Thanks for your input Strzelecki.

Yes, my company has an employee handbook, probably the biggest one in the world. Contractually and legally the company do have a right to claim the money back, but only under certain circumstances, but only if the circumstances fit within UK law. The certain circumstances I'm not entirely sure of from a company point of view as I cannot access them until I return to work. However, if the company contracts breach UK employment law, which I tried to simplify above, they would be in deep doo doo. You mentioned that that your company has the right to claim money back. It's extremely unlikely that any company would include extra curricular details in to a contract that covered every point in law, let alone outline them.

Your comments are perfectly correct but, going in to details and regardless of the amount in question, a company only has a right, legally speaking, if an employee cannot demonstrate they were unaware they had been overpaid. Everyone has a contract for their job but, when push comes to shove, how would they hold up in court on certain circumstances.

My current circumstances in detail start hitting on grey points within contract law, and I'm certainly not going to go in to that. Company policy is one thing but, the reason you get employee disputes is because contracts never give 100% details on legalities of the contents. If they did then every employment contract would be like a novel.

[Maggy J]

I think you will have to repay it as you are responsible for checking your payslip carefully.The fact that you made erronious assumptions won't defend you from repayment.However I think that they will have to be reasonable about how much you repay weekly/monthly as it was their error.You are going to have to negotiate with the young woman concerned as to how much would be reasonable to repay without leaving you too short to pay your basic bills and utilities for the next few months.

Keeping your temper will get you much further and accepting that you will have to repay it will also get you some consideration.If you get no joy then go to your union rep or immediate boss and try and get some help from them making it clear that you will repay but not at a swinging payment that will get you into undue debt.I'm sure that they will be reasonable if you are reasonable.

Good luck!

[Sage013]

Thanks for your commentsIncognitas, appreciated.

When checking my payslips, to me they're not complicated, on seeing that my bonus had been taken into consideration due to being off sick, I felt that at the time it was a perfectly reasonable assumption to make that my basic pay had also been taken in to consideration, which will be part of my argument. Add to that that I wasnt informed otherwise backs up my assumption from my point of view.

As for your other comments, I totally agree with what you say. Thank you.

[ian@huth]

A lot depends on the actual wording of your contract regarding pay for absences during sickness. I have seen many contracts which state the period which will normally be paid whilst off sick but the payment is at the companies descretion and the period can be extended beyond the norm at the companies descretion.

From your description of what has transpired your employer can make deductions from your salary to cover the overpayment. The only option you have is to try to negotiate a satisfactory repayment plan with your employer.

[daz300]

all info from the citizen advice bureau
link

Can my employer force me to give back an overpayment of wages?



Your employer can only make deductions from your wages in limited circumstances. They can deduct tax and national insurance (NI) and they can also make other deductions for which they have previously got your written consent or which are allowed in your contract of employment. (Different rules apply for shop workers).



An exception to the rule that consent is needed to make a deduction is where there has been an overpayment of wages (or some other payments, for example, expenses). In law, the employer can recover these through a deduction of your wages even if this is without your agreement.


However, if your employer gave the impression that the wages were correct at the time they were paid, you did not know that you had been overpaid and you have spent the money (and to pay it back would put you in a worse financial position than if the overpayment had not been made) you should argue that you should not have to repay the money.

hope it helps
daz300

[driver_problems]

why don't you just say to them "look I've spent it! how about if I pay it back £10/month (should take about three years then)

[Sage013]

@daz300 - Thank you very much for this. Whilst I know what I can and cannot do, throwing the CAB's name in to the argument will help (especially at my comapny , sorry can't say anymore on that at present).

@driver problems - I think you got your maths wrong. I apparently owe £1,660, thats 13 years 10 months at £10 a month. Looking at my payslip every month for 13yrs and being reminded of this problem will not exactly help me to forget things. Whilst I appreciate it's an option, I'd rather not go for this and I doubt my company would either. If they could wait that long they might as well write the amount off. It would also set a precedent for all other members of staff.

Just to recap on what I originally posted. I'm aware of my legal position and what I would need to prove/demonstrate if the matter went to court. I'm waiting for my manager to contact me next week to see what the position is going to be. Unless he tells me they'll write it off there's not much I can do until I return to work. Although seeing as I've been unable to think about anythign else for the past day, I'm begining to wonder if I'll ever be in a fit mental state to wok again. (another argument to throw in to the hat )

something that does concern me is that most people that have posted above seem I think I should just get on with trying to pay the money back without arguing. Don't people ever question decision made against you???

p.s. I think I should start writing a book. As soon as I start typing I'm seem to be able to waffle on forever if I don't consciously stop myself.

[driver_problems]

Originally Posted by Sage013

@driver problems - I think you got your maths wrong. I apparently owe £1,660, thats 13 years 10 months at £10 a month.

yeah - I don't think I thought that one through properly. I have reconsidered this. What you should do is go to a laywer ( a proper one that you pay for and not a mickey mouse win or no fee type of parasite) and ask his opinion - first visit should be 'off the clock' and there may be a letter that costs £60 or so. Let 'em know you mean business - go for their throats - and they will know that they will be in the sights for losing some actual hard cash. It will fire a shot across their boughs so to speak

[Sage013]

As I've now resolved this I thought I'd let everyone know the result.

After a carefully contructed letter to my Director of HR (I write letters for a living so believe me, it was good) my company have agreed to waive the overpayment, although without accepting any liability for error.

A glorious victory? Doesn't feel like it for some reason. I know for definate that I've been on half pay for the last two month and I'm going to have to tighten my belt buckle though February and March. Still, one saving grace is that I pay my council tax by Direct Debit over ten months so, I'm done for the year and no payments are due in February and March

Just a word of warning to eveyone though, writing strong letters to your employers has to be done very carefully. One wrong word and you could find yourself worse of than before you started. Block your emotions out and be plain simple and to the point. Don't make idle threats either hoping they'll sway someone's decision, they have a habit of getting people's back up. If you don't feel happy writing it yourself, get some else to do it for you.

[Maggy J]

Originally Posted by Sage013

As I've now resolved this I thought I'd let everyone know the result.

After a carefully contructed letter to my Director of HR (I write letters for a living so believe me, it was good) my company have agreed to waive the overpayment, although without accepting any liability for error.

A glorious victory? Doesn't feel like it for some reason. I know for definate that I've been on half pay for the last two month and I'm going to have to tighten my belt buckle though February and March. Still, one saving grace is that I pay my council tax by Direct Debit over ten months so, I'm done for the year and no payments are due in February and March

Just a word of warning to eveyone though, writing strong letters to your employers has to be done very carefully. One wrong word and you could find yourself worse of than before you started. Block your emotions out and be plain simple and to the point. Don't make idle threats either hoping they'll sway someone's decision, they have a habit of getting people's back up. If you don't feel happy writing it yourself, get some else to do it for you.

Pleased to hear you've got some sort of resolution that you can accept.