Religious morality

[Russ]

Mod edit (Chris T): This thread is split from the original 'hetero wedding picture removed' thread, to allow both topics to be explored separately.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

My religion, as does Christianity and Judaism, says that homosexuality is wrong.

To be fair, Christianity does not say homosexuality is wrong - is says homosexual sex and the 'lifestyle' is wrong. They may be connected but there's enough of a difference to make it count.

And as Chris T says, I'm still waiting for the usual suspects to jump on you for having such a view point - unless they only reserve that for us Jesus-freaks....

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Russ D

To be fair, Christianity does not say homosexuality is wrong - is says homosexual sex and the 'lifestyle' is wrong. They may be connected but there's enough of a difference to make it count.

And as Chris T says, I'm still waiting for the usual suspects to jump on you for having such a view point - unless they only reserve that for us Jesus-freaks....

homosexual sex = wrong, lifestyle = wrong? so does that not imply that being a practising (i.e one who indulges in homosexual activities , not one who's wearing L plates) homosexual is wrong?

As for your second point, I think everyone's just being PC

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

homosexual sex = wrong, lifestyle = wrong? so does that not imply that being a practising (i.e one who indulges in homosexual activities , not one who's wearing L plates) homosexual is wrong?

As for your second point, I think everyone's just being PC

Yawn......... Perhaps those of us that normally join in have got bored with having the same points thrown at us thread in thread out.

Regardless of what religion you follow I'd still tell you what I think........if I could be bothereed to go through it all again.

As for the picture, as a "gay" ...... I'd rather not see it peering down on me while I was in the middle of a "civil partnership" (yawn again) but that's never going to happen, so you can keep it up for me.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

homosexual sex = wrong, lifestyle = wrong? so does that not imply that being a practising (i.e one who indulges in homosexual activities , not one who's wearing L plates) homosexual is wrong?

As I see it, a homosexual is someone who is attracted to someone of the same sex.

There is nothing written in any Bible which is against this.

[clarie]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

As for your second point, I think everyone's just being PC

I wasn't being PC I just think you're wrong

Originally Posted by Russ D

As I see it, a homosexual is someone who is attracted to someone of the same sex.

There is nothing written in any Bible which is against this.

I'm confused as to why The Guardian is today reporting a schism in the Anglican church over gay clergy. Does the Bible make a distinction between the emotional and physical displays of love ie. is being gay OK unless you are a "practising gay". Bit O/T but i'm intrigued.

Originally Posted by Russ D

As I see it, a homosexual is someone who is attracted to someone of the same sex.

There is nothing written in any Bible which is against this.

I'm confused as to why The Guardian is today reporting a schism in the Anglican church over gay clergy. Does the Bible make a distinction between the emotional and physical displays of love ie. is being gay OK unless you are a "practising gay". Bit O/T but i'm intrigued.

EDIT: http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/S...644268,00.html Makes reference to "unrepentant sexual immorality"

2nd EDIT!: Might be a bit unfair to ask you to be a spokesperson for the Anglican church (I know you are not an advocate of organised religion). I'm perplexed as to the justification for such beliefs if they are not sanctioned by the Bible, or an interpretation of it at least)

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

the point i was trying to make is that I would not like the picture there because it doesnt agree with my moral code, and i feel im in the majority on that (if people were gonna be truthful on this) Yes I would say to my daughter, "two men want to make a commitment to each other", but as you can expect, the next question would be, "why do two men want to get married?" <snip>

I'm assuming, you being as muslim and all, that your book is the Koran.

How do you explain to your daughter that in later life, if she cheeses her husband off, it's OK for him to beat her?

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by orangebird

I'm assuming, you being as muslim and all, that your book is the Koran.

How do you explain to your daughter that in later life, if she cheeses her husband off, it's OK for him to beat her?

Have you read that in the Koran? Or is it what you've heard someone say or interpret. One of the biggest misconceptions about Islam is the role of women in it. Non muslims seem to believe that muslims are second class citizens or have a lower standing in our religion. Yes there are instances in the Koran where the perceived role of women has been narrated/set down. How ever these are guidelines and not orders as such. Additonally there is plenty of reasoning behind whats written. For example the Koran and teachings of our Prophet advised that women should travel in the companion of a man through whiuch they are related (either Husband/brother/uncle etc etc) The reason behind this was for the protection of women. It doesnt mean women cant drive alone (as is the law in Saudi) or that they cannot travel on their own. Also men should lower their gaze when in the company of women, to me that shows a respect towards a woman, i.e not ogling her etc etc.

If you were to read the Koran you would know that our Prophet placed huge importance on the value and roles of wives and mothers, as well as making Islam equal for all. If you want to engage in a religious debate I am far than happy to produce quotes and Koranic verses, as well as how they fit into the everyday way of life of our religion. I can also introduce you to other muslim women who can adress any points you have from their perspective

I think a lot of people get confused between how a particular culture treats a woman vs how religion treats a woman. FOr exapmle in various countries such as Pakistan, and the Middle east a womans role is pretty secondary. We conclude that because these are predominantly muslim countries its the fault of Islam. I would disagree. These are cultural and chauvenistic traits. The same happens in China (not a 'muslim' country), India (predominantly hindu), parts of Eastern Europe. In fact if you look at the role of women in England in the Victorian era you would find a lot to be shocked about, and that was a country with Christian values.

Domestic violence is an issue that happens accross all cultures and one which needs to be addressed and dealt with. I donot think my religion condones it, as neither do other religions I have studied. It is to do with power and control. The people who carry out domestic violence are too keen to blame other things (be it religion, culture, dinner was too cold, stress at work) except from their own stupid weak cowardly selves.

Good post. I'm an atheist but respect the beliefs of those who have faith to the point at which those beliefs impinge on the rights and lives of others. There is an issue with the way Islam is interpreted to justify certain behaviours and actions, but that's hardly unique when it comes to religion.

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Have you read that in the Koran?

Yes. I was so disturbed by reading the book 'Not without My Daughter', I couldn't not.

Or is it what you've heard someone say or interpret.

No - as above

One of the biggest misconceptions about Islam is the role of women in it. Non muslims seem to believe that muslims are second class citizens or have a lower standing in our religion. Yes there are instances in the Koran where the perceived role of women has been narrated/set down. How ever these are guidelines and not orders as such.

Oh, well that's OK then.

Additonally there is plenty of reasoning behind whats written. For example the Koran and teachings of our Prophet advised that women should travel in the companion of a man through whiuch they are related (either Husband/brother/uncle etc etc) The reason behind this was for the protection of women. It doesnt mean women cant drive alone (as is the law in Saudi) or that they cannot travel on their own. Also men should lower their gaze when in the company of women, to me that shows a respect towards a woman, i.e not ogling her etc etc.

How the hell does a man manage to ogle a muslim women when she's all trussed up in a chador???

If you were to read the Koran you would know that our Prophet placed huge importance on the value and roles of wives and mothers, as well as making Islam equal for all.

I have read it, and it's BS.

If you want to engage in a religious debate I am far than happy to produce quotes and Koranic verses, as well as how they fit into the everyday way of life of our religion. I can also introduce you to other muslim women who can adress any points you have from their perspective

Here's a verse for you - justify that if you will?

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...2&postcount=26

I think a lot of people get confused between how a particular culture treats a woman vs how religion treats a woman.

My aunty was catholic, and converted over to the muslim faith approx 15 years ago. She's not allowed to fraternise with her family since, and her 10 year old son once informed me that all Catholics are liars....

FOr exapmle in various countries such as Pakistan, and the Middle east a womans role is pretty secondary. We conclude that because these are predominantly muslim countries its the fault of Islam

Islamic law is the most mysoginistic, sexist text there is..You reckon it's fair on women - tell that to the women that get guns shoved in their faces by pasdar because their socks are wrinkled and showing 3mm of knee!!!!

I would disagree.

That's one thing we'll have to agree on - disagreeing.

These are cultural and chauvenistic traits. The same happens in China (not a 'muslim' country), India (predominantly hindu), parts of Eastern Europe. In fact if you look at the role of women in England in the Victorian era you would find a lot to be shocked about, and that was a country with Christian values.

I'm a complete and utter non beliver in all religion. IMO all faiths are as bad as each other.

Domestic violence is an issue that happens accross all cultures and one which needs to be addressed and dealt with. I donot think my religion condones it, as neither do other religions I have studied. It is to do with power and control. The people who carry out domestic violence are too keen to blame other things (be it religion, culture, dinner was too cold, stress at work) except from their own stupid weak cowardly selves.

Indeed, it does happen across all cultures... but the Koran is the only holy book I've read that actually suggests duffing your missus up if you need to.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by andyl

There is an issue with the way Islam is interpreted to justify certain behaviours and actions, but that's hardly unique when it comes to religion.

The other major problem regarding Islam is that people read the Koran in its own context. The Koran is hard enuough to understand for Muslims reading the translated version of the Arabic. That is why when we wish to understand it, we have a wealth of texts wriiten by long established and rrespected scholars of Islam, which we often refer to.

Our religion is not just governed by the Koran but also by what muslims refer to as , The Sunnah of The Prophet. These are recorded narrations, either from quotes of the Prophet or those close to him, and give us 'a way of life'. Muslims are told to follow the way of our Prophet, and its only by reading the Koran and The Sunnah (recorded in Hadiths - I can point people in the right direction if interested) taht you can truly appreciate or understqnd what our religion is all about.

For example the Koran tells us we should pray to God (or Allah as we refer to God it in Arabic - Same God as the Christyian and Jewish God, but people often assume that Allah is some other God). However it is the hadith which established how the Prophet prayed 5 times a day at specific hours, and in what manner. This was how the manner in which we prayer was established.

So it is important to read/study the two if you want a better understanding of our religion.

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

....So it is important to read/study the two if you want a better understanding of our religion.

Fair point. As I say though the issue with much religion is how texts, or at least interpretations of texts, are used to justify actions and indeed words (as an example Francis Graham's, son of Billy's recent comments re New Orleans etc). Acts which are abhorrent are dressed up as being acceptable due to an interpretation and as I say, that is an issue for pretty much all the major religions as far as I can see. That is not to tar with the same brush all those with faith as clearly many do not subscribe to such interpretations. To do so would be a bit like suggesting all Marxists are like Stalin I guess

EDIT: If any mods are watching on, I know this has drifted off topic but this has the makings of an interesting debate if respect to all is shown; so if it could be left to run...... (pretty please!)

[Chris]

I have split out the above posts from the Heterosexual wedding photo thread. They were getting off topic but there is clearly some mileage in this discussion ... so please feel free to continue here.

Originally Posted by Chris T

I have split out the above posts from the Heterosexual wedding photo thread. They were getting off topic but there is clearly some mileage in this discussion ... so please feel free to continue here.

Good call