Refused Refund......Need Advice

[Barewolf]

I'm having a slight problem, and I don't know where i stand.

Basically I ordered a CCTV system off ebay for our passageway, it was expensive, £300. When I received it i checked it out to see what it was like. I didn't want to mount this up outside without seeing the quality.

It stated it was 420 TV lines, and I wasn't happy with the quality as i couldn't see anyone's face from a distance of 20ft. So i rang the bloke up.

He told me it was an observation camera, and if i wanted to mount the camera in the location i had chosen, i needed a dome camera, this would cost me another £70.

I eventually decided to send the system back for a full refund, so I boxed the unit up as I had received it, and returned the package which cost me £14.

They received it but didn't refund me, so i had to email the bloke again.

His reply was that he can't sell the unit as it's been damaged. He is basically saying I hadn't packaged it up properly, and the unit can't be resold, so the refund can't be made.

This is Bullcrap, I know I boxed this up securely. I'm getting the impression from this guy that he doesn't want to refund me the money.

I've filed a claim through paypal, but this will take 20 days before any action is taken, then god knows how long before its resolved.

Is there anything else I can do about this?, What would you do in this situation?

[Kymmy]

Distance selling rules I think only applies if the item was unused by yourseld (might be wrong though) if correct that means he doesn't have to give you a refund unless the item was as ebay puts it "Not as described"

[Acathla]

SAD FART - No Really!
Satisfactory quality, As Described Fit for purpose And last a Reasonable length of Time

Ebay has a caveat: Buy from a 'trader' who makes some or all of their living selling on eBay and you've the full SadFart rights. However, buy from an occasional private seller and as long as the goods are 'as described', the only rule is "let the buyer beware".

Have you a picture of the goods when you packaged them up and before you sent them to show they were packaged correctly? Has he a picture of when the goods were received to show a damaged package? Maybe he has to make a claim with the postal office.

If you damaged them and sent them back, it's your fault. If he damaged them to prevent a refund, it's his fault. If they were damaged during postage and every precaution was taken to prevent damage, then the postal service is likely to blame (assume with something that expensive, you took out postal insurance?).

More info here: http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/sho...funds-exchange

[Barewolf]

I didnt take a picture of the goods packaged, I should have, and wished I had.

Basically it's my word against his, I wouldnt put it past him for trying to get out of a refund by saying its damaged.

if you could see his e-mails to me you would agree.

i just feel he's trying to pull a fast one.

[Tim Deegan]

Originally Posted by Kymmy

Distance selling rules I think only applies if the item was unused by yourseld (might be wrong though) if correct that means he doesn't have to give you a refund unless the item was as ebay puts it "Not as described"

Under DSR's there are only a few items that you can't send back once opened and used. And security cameras wouldn't be included in that short list. So you are fully entitled to a refund if you inform the seller by letter or e-mail within 7 working days, starting the day after delivery.

Has the seller given you any proof that it was damaged?

Even if it was damaged in transit, then I presume that it was insured? So the seller should still refund you, and you can claim from the insurance. How you want to sort this is up to you both to sort out. But I suspect that the insurance will take a long time. And the seller has to refund you within 28 days (if I remember rightly).

Personally I suspect that there is nothing wrong with the camera, and the seller is trying it on.

[Barewolf]

is it 28 days to refund me by law?

---------- Post added at 11:37 ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 ----------

ps - whats dsr?

[Acathla]

Distance Selling Regulations

[TheDon]

Originally Posted by Tim Deegan

Under DSR's

Which don't apply to auction sites so are useless in this situation.

Originally Posted by Barewolf

Basically it's my word against his

Yep, but luckily for you paypal side with the buyer 9 times out of 10. As long as you provide proof of return and claim it wasn't as described then you should have no problem.

[Kymmy]

I always thought that the item should be un-used.. You're allowed to open items and inspect them as you would in a shop but that is all. In this case though it is irrelevant as he's refusing a return due to damage.

What does the auction itself say? Has he put any conditions on the sale? When did you recieve the item?

---------- Post added at 11:56 ---------- Previous post was at 11:54 ----------

Originally Posted by TheDon

Which don't apply to auction sites so are useless in this situation.

Incorrect, auctions are covered by DSR if the seller selling as a trader.

[Barewolf]

Originally Posted by Kymmy

I always thought that the item should be un-used.. You're allowed to open items and inspect them as you would in a shop but that is all. In this case though it is irrelevant as he's refusing a return due to damage.

What does the auction itself say? Has he put any conditions on the sale? When did you recieve the item?

---------- Post added at 11:56 ---------- Previous post was at 11:54 ----------



Incorrect, auctions are covered by DSR if the seller selling as a trader.

His returns note is This.............

"Returns & Refunds
We accept returns within 14 days of purchase. Please contact us prior to returning any goods to obtain a valid RMA code. Goods must be new & unused condition, in saleable condition, and must be in all their original packing with all relevant manuals etc. The goods should also be packed in suitable outer packing / box as you received the goods. Please ensure there is no tape applied to the original product box or product. The postage & packing cost both ways is the customers responsibility. Should the original postage be free of charge for the goods being returned (excluding faulty product) we reserve the right to charge the same fee as the cost that you incur in sending the goods back to us. Please ensure that you send the goods back by use of an appropriate service, as it’s your responsible to return the goods back to us. this offer of return does not apply to custom orders where goods have been bought in as a special order. goods that are faulty within 14 days will either be offered a replacement or refund."


And according to OFT, he has 28 days to refund me, which someone mentioned.

---------- Post added at 12:44 ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 ----------

I should also mention I contacted them regarding the RMA number and they refused the returns note via ebay.

---------- Post added at 13:12 ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 ----------

Heres What I wrote to Him, As Advised by OFT....


"To Whom This May Concern,

Under the Consumer Protection Distance Selling Regulations 2000, And As Per My Consumer rights, I am claiming a full refund within 28 days for the CCTV system I bought from you Via eBay, Item Number (1106Blah95).

I have contacted you via The eBay messaging system several times regarding this issue, to which you have stated the unit has been damaged due to my faulty packaging. Because you have claimed this unit has been damaged by myself, I request that you send me proof that the unit has been damaged. Failure to provide me proof is in breach of contract under the Consumer Protection Selling Regulations.

For further clarification on this issue, I sent this Item (1106Blah95) back fully boxed in the same condition it arrived, and there was no way possible that any damage could have been done to the unit the way I had packaged it.

I will Also Forward A Copy Of This Letter Via Recorded Post, As Advised By OFT.

Regards,
Mr Whittaker"


he Replied to me With This...........


"You've already started a paypal claim item significantly not as described, So i will respond to the paypal claim, The main issue for me is that the claim states item significantly not as described. The system was described correctly and we have phone support and email support etc. Regards the packing i'll sort that with paypal. So i will go through there due process has you have paid Paypal. so it will be paypal who would refund you. Once they have reviewed the case"


It's true, I did start the case via paypal, and had to choose goods not as described because there was no option for what I wanted to Dispute.

I've now closed the case with Paypal, But I find it very suspect he wanted to go through their system for item not as described.

He also hasnt sent me any proof of the damaged unit.

[Gary L]

Why have you closed the claim with Paypal?

[Barewolf]

Originally Posted by Gary L

Why have you closed the claim with Paypal?

Because I had made a claim for "Goods not As Described", and his response was to go through paypal, he obviously knows if he went through paypal they would favour his argument.

I closed the claim via paypal and voilla, he says hes going to refund me rather than go through OFT.

Thanks for your advice everyone. Seems to have worked.

[LSainsbury]

Originally Posted by Barewolf

Thanks for your advice everyone. Seems to have worked.

Get your money back then you can say that.

[Barewolf]

Originally Posted by LSainsbury

Get your money back then you can say that.

Its in my Paypal account now, just transferred it back to my bank, Im happy now

[Tim Deegan]

Originally Posted by Kymmy

I always thought that the item should be un-used.. You're allowed to open items and inspect them as you would in a shop but that is all. In this case though it is irrelevant as he's refusing a return due to damage.

That only applies to items that due to their nature can't be returned for various reasons. Items like food for obvious reasons. Also underwear, piercings, mattresses etc... due to possible contamination by body fluids. Although this causes a great deal of debate due to different peoples interpretation of the law. In most other cases items can be returned, even after use. The fact that the seller can't resell it as new doesn't give any exemption.

In the OP's case they had to use the system to test it, and see if it was suitable. They found that it wasn't suitable, so they are entitled to return it as long as it is undamaged. Now even if the seller isn't trying to pull a fast one, and it was damaged in transit, then this is where an insurance claim from the courier comes in.

Originally Posted by Kymmy

What does the auction itself say? Has he put any conditions on the sale? When did you recieve the item?

The sellers terms and conditions can't overide DSR's, or SOGA.

Originally Posted by Kymmy

Incorrect, auctions are covered by DSR if the seller selling as a trader.

I was about to say that....thanks. I should add that if the seller is selling multiple items that are the same or similar, then they are a trader. Even if they are listed as a private seller, they can't avoid their obligations.

---------- Post added at 13:45 ---------- Previous post was at 13:43 ----------

Originally Posted by Barewolf

Its in my Paypal account now, just transferred it back to my bank, Im happy now

Nice one. I was just going to suggest that you name and shame him.