Need some advice on a paypal dispute.

[AdamD]

I was looking for a coder to create a plugin/modification for my Vbulletin forum, as well as for a client of mine who was also interested in the idea.

So I decided to look on Webhostingtalk for a coder who was competent in PHP/MySQL and Vbulletin in general.

And that's when I came across a thread in the offers section by DephNet[Paul]

http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?t=947680

I contacted Paul via email as requested in the thread, explained what I wanted and was quoted £300 for 30 hours of PHP work.

He asked if I had a date that this needed to be implemented by, I said "upto 30 days"

The first part of the payment was sent on May 13th at roughly 10pm GMT, for £150 (50% deposit)

Fast forward to the 14th of June, I never received the promised product/modification and despite numerous requests for updates, I never got any solid finish date, or update on how close it was to completion.

Despite numerous "I'll check on the status tomorrow" emails, I never got anything back.

So on Saturday the 5th of June, I requsted a refund, as I was tired of waiting with no updates and my client was also fedup and decided to go to another programmer to get the work done.

The reply I got back was dissapointing, to say the least.

Hello Adam,

I did receive your email, As I do not work during the weekends I did not receive it until today.

I am sorry to hear that you had to go elsewhere to get the mod done.

Unfortunately, because of the time I have taken to do this, I am unable to provide a refund.

Paul

And

Adam,

You paid a deposit of £150, deposits by their very nature are non-refundable, I initially gave you the option that if, after 7 days, you were not happy with my work I would refund 100% of the deposit. You did not take up this offer, and so the deposit reverted to being non-refundable.

On top of this, I have taken a further 10 hours, on top of the 30 I quoted to begin with, but I am not going to expect the final £250 to be paid as you have not received the final product.

I admit that my contact with you could have been better but having to deal with several issues here my mind was elsewhere. If I had an issue free month I would have had this done three weeks ago, but unfortunately the best laid plans do not always go to plan.

Therefore the refund is denied.

Paul

So, any advice or thoughts are appreciated.

[Gary L]

I'll kneecap him for you, for a £50 deposit

Open up a paypal dispute.

[AdamD]

lol, £50 eh? Bargain price

I have, I opened the dispute and escalated it to a claim.

He's since threatend to take me to the collectors for the remaining amount (eh? he never finished the work heh)

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by AdamD

lol, £50 eh? Bargain price

That's just the deposit. you'll still owe me £25 afterwards

I have, I opened the dispute and escalated it to a claim.

He's since threatend to take me to the collectors for the remaining amount (eh? he never finished the work heh)

Who's to say he hasn't done the same to others? he probably hasn't but.
I'd just carry on with the claim. he knows that using Paypal can result in a chargeback.

[AdamD]

Yea I tried to dispute it with my debit card provider (barclays)
They were useless, basically, said the payment couldn't be reversed, but it could be "disputed"
When I said it was done through paypal the rep said "Ohh, we can't touch paypal, sorry"
When I asked why, he said I'd have to go through paypal's dispute process (ugh)

[D_Skids]

Surely you can use this as an arguement -

Quote

'You paid a deposit of £150, deposits by their very nature are non-refundable, I initially gave you the option that if, after 7 days, you were not happy with my work I would refund 100% of the deposit. You did not take up this offer, and so the deposit reverted to being non-refundable.'

Now from how I read it you have not seen any work from this person so how were you able to tell if the work was satisfactory or not within the first 7 days?

[AdamD]

Yea, exactly

This is the timeline of events

13th of may - £150 deposit paid

13th of may - Confirmed deposit received, "Thats great, ill get started on that tomorrow morning"

13th of may - Me: did you want a working forum/access to VB files

13th of may - Paul: A working forum would be nice, or if you would prefer the files and a dev license for VB, then I can do the development here, and then I can push the files to you once done.

17th of May - Me: Howdy Paul, just wanted to check in and see if everything is going ok?Do you think you'll be able to create what I asked for?

17th of May - Paul: Sorry I have not contacted you since Thursday but I have been busy in London, clearing up after a few servers decided they needed a lie down.

I am on my way back home now, and will have a look at this tomorrow afternoon.

I am pretty sure that I can create this as there is almost the entire process already in the admin centre, but at present the Team Leader's are unable to assign moderators to their forums.

May 25th - Me:Hope you sorted your sleepy servers out.
Was just wondering if you had any updates?

Thanks again

May 25th - Paul: We have almost sorted them out, just a few last tweaks to be done, I feel confident enough to leave my staff too it now, and I will have a look at your work first thing in the morning.

No updates since then, apart from the last email I received today where he says "I will have to pass the outstanding balance of your account to collections."

[Rob]

Originally Posted by AdamD

He asked if I had a date that this needed to be implemented by, I said "upto 30 days"

The first part of the payment was sent on May 13th at roughly 10pm GMT, for £150 (50% deposit)

<snip>

So on Saturday the 5th of June, I requsted a refund,

Your dates seem rather confused. You've tried to cancel any contract before you've even allowed the timescale agreed by you of 30 days. You've shot yourself in the foot.

[AdamD]

12th of June 09:43am, sorry
I got a bit mixed up there.

[Aragorn]

Adam, did you actually have any sort of contract with him? If it was just 'I will supply you with code after 30 days' and he hasn't, PP shouldn't have an issue with authorising a refund. If it was 'I will code for 30 days regardless of the end result' it might be more tricky.
I would also be worried about

I will have to pass the outstanding balance of your account to collections.

That would imply he put this through his company whereas the advert implied it was freelance work. Very odd.
Btw, posting a similar complaint on that hosting forum might not go down to well - even if it is satisfying.

[AdamD]

No contract as such, it was an agreement over email (I guess that's a kind of contract heh)
He sent an invoice via their website for 30 hours php development time, which is what the agreement was

Dear Adam xxxxxx,
This is a payment receipt for Invoice 12345 sent on 13/05/2010
30 hours PHP development £300.00
------------------------------------------------------
Sub Total: £300.00
Credit: £0.00
Total: £300.00
Amount: £150.00
Transaction #: xxxxxxxxxxx
Total Paid: £150.00
Remaining Balance: £150.00

[Rob]

He has quoted you for 30 hours of development work. That is open ended as it could easily infer if he needs more time then he can charge you for that extra.

[Kymmy]

If you'd been quoted £300 for the piece of software then you might have had a chance at some form of refund, but as is (and as Rob has already pointed out) you were charged £300 for 30 hours. It's extremely easy for them to say that after 30 hours it is still incomplete and not give you anything back.

For £300 I'm sure that Paul or Punky would have probably done a better job and finished it..

[AdamD]

Urgh.
But shouldn't have have only worked for 30 hours, then stopped and informed me it would take longer? I mean there was zero communication for almost half a month because he said his "team" were working on it.

[D_Skids]

I have no knowledge of the legalities of this but in my humble opinion, he did not produce the work nor even a sample of the work for you to decide if you were happy or not within the first 7 days (or for that matter 7 days of him starting it) so I don't think he has a leg to stand on.
Ask him to see the contract that states that you had agreed to check the work after 7 days to decide whether to continue or not, neither you or him have signed into any contract so where can he pull up any information that said you agreed to this?