Poledancing =prostitution ?

[Vlad_Dracul]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4939752.stm

My situation is that I am currently stricken with proper flu (not man flu) and i therefore find myself off sick from work (shame).

This morning, having watched Jeremy Kyle and Trisha,I was getting bored and was about to turn off and do something usefull when I happend across a little fly on the wall documentary about two teenage friends. The core of the program could loosely be described as being about personal finance and in this respect, the girls had searched for a way to make some money to get themselves out of debt.

For some reason they had decided that pole dancing was the way to go.

Now I am led to beleive that pole dancing first originated as some kind of excercise/cabaret art form and that there are genuine pole dancing excercise classes especially in the US. A quick google confirms this so there is a legit and perfectly harmless part to it.

Unfortunately it seems to have been corrupted and in some cases, become the acceptable face of prostitution.

The two girls in question had arranged a bit of instruction and an interview at a so called "gentlemans club".

It looked like some kind of smokey speakeasy on a trading estate where dodgy geezers in leather jackets and having hands like shovels and fingers like pork sausages might hang out.

One of the girls was a typical petite high street hunny and the other was slightly more well upholstered.

The girls had the quick lesson and the trial and were duly engaged to appear the next night.

The parents had grave doubts and daddy wasnt told at all, oh why the deception?

On the night the girls were shown "socialising" with customers in the bar. There was some close contact between the more experienced girls and the customers.

It was made clear that the way to make real money was to get a customer (not a client) to request either a topless or even a naked dance in one of the private booths in another part of the club.

The girls were clearly rather anxious about this. They had probably been led to beleive or understood that all that they had to do was wiggle about on a stage well away from harms reach and the closest they would get to a man would be when he snuck a twenty pound note into their G-string.

The more petite girl decided to bite the bullet and on the night did a selection of "private" dances,both topless and naked. The other girl did not do so well. Perhaps the customers preferred the girls to look as young and petite as possible?

Apparently the fully naked version can net upto £150. One of the more experienced girls demonstrated the fully naked dance and it was probably as close to intercourse as you could get without penetration-but then who knows what arrangements are made in private?

It was clear that the girls were out of their depths and secretly felt ashamed and dirty-not their fault totally,they had been misled. But then as i say, prostitution sometimes masquerades as a perfectly legitamate pass-time.

In reality,i maintain that often there is little or no difference.

[Ramrod]

Surely prostitution is when one gets paid for sexual intercourse?

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Surely prostitution is when one gets paid for sexual intercourse?

Prostitution is what they do, have sex for money, whilst these girls aren't doing that, they are still selling themselves and certainly leave themselves open to the temptation of going further and entering a very murky and dangerous world

[etccarmageddon]

any chance you could give me an address so I can research what you get for £150 and report back!

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by etccarmageddon

any chance you could give me an address so I can research what you get for £150 and report back!

Perhaps we should organise a whip round for you to, wouldn't want you being out of pocket in the course of your research

[Niles Crane]

If you have no evidence to suggest there was any intercourse other than your own imagination and suspicion then no, its not prostitution. Is pornography prostitution too then? Chat lines?

[Gareth]

Maybe 'exploitation' would be a better choice of word? But can you be exploited if you agree to doing something of your own free will?

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Gareth

Maybe 'exploitation' would be a better choice of word? But can you be exploited if you agree to doing something of your own free will?

I don't think you can, you can get yourself in situations you have no control over though

[Vlad_Dracul]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Surely prostitution is when one gets paid for sexual intercourse?

Its a fine line but

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution

refers to "and other sexual acts" I would tend to feel that having a naked young nymphette grinding away on my lap could be deemed to be a sexual act.

[Niles Crane]

Originally Posted by dooper786

Its a fine line but

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution

refers to "and other sexual acts" I would tend to feel that having a naked young nymphette gridning away on my lap could be deemed to be a sexual act.

You speak as though the workers in this club were underage sex addicts. Is that true or just a false picture you're trying to portray?

[Vlad_Dracul]

Originally Posted by Ezenden

If you have no evidence to suggest there was any intercourse other than your own imagination and suspicion then no, its not prostitution. Is pornography prostitution too then? Chat lines?

Clearly you are not comparing like with like since in the case of pornography and chat lines, the two participants are remote whereas in a private booth the naked girl is in physical contact with the male.

Are we to beleive that the male is there merely to study human anatomy? Surely with a purse of £150 , there must be some level of expectation?

---------- Post added at 18:31 ---------- Previous post was at 18:26 ----------

Originally Posted by Ezenden

You speak as though the workers in this club were underage sex addicts. Is that true or just a false picture you're trying to portray?

I have never suggested such a thing.

The program was loosley about personal finance and the two seemingly rather naive young girls thought that pole dancing was the way forward. They had presumably been encouraged by the popular cabaret image of a beautiful dancer, remote from the crowd.

They clearly hadnt thought that to earn their money, they would need to strip naked in a private booth and perform like an ape on a lead in a Benidorm sideshow whilst some guy gets "excited" about it.

[Niles Crane]

Originally Posted by dooper786

Clearly you are not comparing like with like since in the case of pornography and chat lines, the two participants are rmote whereas in a private both the naked girl is in physical contact with the male.

Are we to beleive that the male is there merely to study human anatomy? Surely with a purse of £150 , there must be some level of expectation?

Yes, that's exactly what we're meant to believe. Like i said previously; if you have no evidence to suggest there was any intercourse other than your own imagination and suspicion then no, its not prostitution.

There's plenty of interactive pornography and chat lines are interactive too and they're both just as capable of pleasuring men as poledancing. They, like poledancing don't involve actual intercourse either.

I have never suggested such a thing.

Forgive me if i'm wrong but isnt a nymph someone obssessed with sex and a nymphette a young person who is? If thats the case, then why are you using these terms when there is no evidence to back them up?

[Halcyon]

Pole dancing is definately a sexual way of dancing thats for sure, but as others have mentioned, it was part of cabaret and live show dances in the past.
It is a shame that it has become such a sex orientated way these days.

[Hugh]

And a view from the other side
MaleLapDancers

btw, it is my belief (not borne out by experience, but by what I have read in the newspapers, that there is a strict "no touching" rule (by either party) otherwise the club can lose it's licence (as it then borders on to sexual acts, rather than voyeurism).

"Tricky Dicky's is the very first club catering solely for straight women, with no men allowed through the doors - except for the 22 thong-clad male dancers.
Entry costs £5, and the customers buy £10 tokens at the bar. A dancer - chosen by the punter - gets one token to perform a dance in the club's main section, or two for a private dance in a booth. There is strictly no touching, with six female security staff on hand to enforce the rule."

[andygrif]

Originally Posted by dooper786

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4939752.stm


Apparently the fully naked version can net upto £150. One of the more experienced girls demonstrated the fully naked dance and it was probably as close to intercourse as you could get without penetration-but then who knows what arrangements are made in private?

It was clear that the girls were out of their depths and secretly felt ashamed and dirty-not their fault totally,they had been misled. But then as i say, prostitution sometimes masquerades as a perfectly legitamate pass-time.

In reality,i maintain that often there is little or no difference.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that you have come to reach this amazing conclusion as a result of watching the Jeremey Kyle show? And you want a reasoned discussion on this subject do you?

Clearly you know nothing about the business, and you have reached a reactionary viewpoint by watching a programme of the ilk that tries to sensationalise every subject to, presumably, appeal to the Daily Mail readers who occasionally watch TV when they're not writing their letters of complaint to OFCOM and stoning paediatrictians' lounge windows.

So, to give you another - more balanced and realistic precis on the subject of lapdancing, I should probably tell you that as a photographer I have shot a fair few lapdancers, who also model in their spare time. I have also done all the photos for a couple of respectable clubs locally for their publicity and websites - so (and it is a tough life) I have spent some time in such venues - although I would stress working and not as a customer.

There have been cases of prositution in some clubs, no doubt is has and does go on...Spearmint Rhino was the prime example of this, before they cleaned up their act. But the business is quite well policed, council officials do spot checks to ensure that the licenses are being stuck to and if you talk to any lapdancing licensee you'll know that the boys in blue visit their establishments more than their pub-counter parts.

When you talk to the women who work there, you'll probably find that there is a pretty large percentage of very intelligent girls doing it for a living - one was paying her way through university to become a lawyer, one is studying a for her PhD, others are doing it to pay off debts etc as a part-time job.

One thing is clear, however, there is no exploitation of the dancers going on. A good dancer (and to define the word good here I'm talking about conversation and with the client as well as literally good at dancing) will earn in excess of £500-600 a night. The concept of then having some sort of 'sexual relations' with their client is utterly ridiculous and repulsive to these women, so when you're earning around 10 grand a month, why would you want to have sex with the men too?

I can also tell you that the 'private dance' area is covered by CCTV and a member of the staff is there monitoring the area for anything untoward.

If anyone is being exploited, IMHO, it's the guys who go in there and hand over their money - but it's a simple equation of supply and demand. There are guys who want to look at beautiful women dancing infront of them and there are women who will supply it.

Similarly, there are a lot of people who read the Daily Mail and are outraged at whatever they are told to be outraged by this week, and for them ITV is only to happy to supply programmes like Jeremey Kyle.