Congestion Charge Problem

[me283]

I am currently trying to resolve a problem for my sister, who has fallen fould of our Ken's C-Charge. She travels abroad a lot, and unfortunately a while back had 3 C-Charge penalties. The first two she paid (even though I disagree with the extortionate amount imposed for what started as a missed £5 charge). The third one she disputed.

Basically she tried to pay via her mobile phone. Twice she was cut off, the third time she heard the wording about her charge being paid, then was cut off. By this stage she was on a train to France, and the signal was gone. Subsequently she received the penalty notice, but by the time she was back in the UK the timesframe for replying had expired. Nevertheless she wrote and explained everything, offering to show her mobile bill with the itemisation of the calls. She received a reply saying that there were "no reasonable grounds" for them to consider accepting her appeal... even though she was out of the country? Seems a bit unreasonable to me.

She was asked though, if she could prove this. That's difficult, because her trip was all-expenses paid. She can show that she was abroad some of the time (credit card bills etc), but here's the crunch: she is abroad again, and the forms that she has to fill in need to be signed ny her, and sworn in court, or by a commissioner for oaths etc. This will not be possible as urgently as it needs to be done.

Why does it need to be done so urgently? Because she has received a bailiff's letter at her house, threatening to remove her car (even though that would involve trespass), or her goods (even though they would need to force entry, as they certainly wouldn't be invited in). I rang the bailiffs and raised these points, and they basically said "well, we can do that".

My issues here are multifold: firstly, how on earth can they justify a £5 charge leaping to what is now nearly £400? (No doubt already covered in many forums); secondly, how can they impose a fine without any kind of court case/hearing? thirdly, how can a bailiff be permitted to send out a letter that would, I promise, scare the life out of someone of lesser character?

OK, rant over. But I look forward to the opinions of others on this. For the record, I disagree with the C-Charge personally; I also fail to see how it can be raised by 60%, which is hardly in line with inflation, or justified by an increase in service levels etc.

[NitroNutter]

Originally Posted by me283

.

My issues here are multifold: firstly, how on earth can they justify a £5 charge leaping to what is now nearly £400? (No doubt already covered in many forums); secondly, how can they impose a fine without any kind of court case/hearing? thirdly, how can a bailiff be permitted to send out a letter that would, I promise, scare the life out of someone of lesser character?

Because at the end of the day we still live in the middle ages, very little has changed. Then they would ride thru your village take your money and burn your straw huts, Today they ride thru your village take all you own and sell it
But its all fair because we have democracy and you the general public voted to have tax here tax there etc. The trouble is bad government choices rarely get thrown out by new governments they just add there share of more and more and then it goes on and just gets worse, but you cant blame the current government for it all and thats the real trick behind our politics.
Soon you will have ID cards growing to ID chips, a central database will record your entire existance, fines taxes salary credit, lose your job and watch your credit suddenly get frozen.

[Nugget]

With regards to the bailiffs, they are not allowed to force entry to the house - I would recommend that, if you can, go round and make sure that all doors and windows are shut (and locked), and that any garage or shed is also locked.

The main thing about bailiffs is that, if they've been in once, they have more powers of entry subsequently - just make sure that there is no way they can get in while your sisters away, and they can't do anything about the house.

TBH, I'm not sure about the car, but couldn't you move it to your house for the time being?

[gazzae]

Originally Posted by me283

(even though they would need to force entry, as they certainly wouldn't be invited in).

As Nugget says that are not allowed to force entry, but they don't need to be invited in. If a door or window is open or can be opened without the use of force then they are allowed to gain access this way.

Also, this is something that people don't know about, once they have access to the premises they CAN use force to open any internal doors that are locked.

Now what I don't get is why they would take the car if the debt is only £400? What would they do in this case? Sell the car to get the £400 and then give you the rest back?

Originally Posted by Nugget

With regards to the bailiffs, they are not allowed to force entry to the house - I would recommend that, if you can, go round and make sure that all doors and windows are shut (and locked), and that any garage or shed is also locked.

The main thing about bailiffs is that, if they've been in once, they have more powers of entry subsequently - just make sure that there is no way they can get in while your sisters away, and they can't do anything about the house.

TBH, I'm not sure about the car, but couldn't you move it to your house for the time being?

They can put a levy on the car for charges

[Mr_love_monkey]

Originally Posted by gazzae

As Nugget says that are not allowed to force entry, but they don't need to be invited in. If a door or window is open or can be opened without the use of force then they are allowed to gain access this way.

but they can come back with the police who will force entry, if need be.

Originally Posted by gazzae

Now what I don't get is why they would take the car if the debt is only £400? What would they do in this case? Sell the car to get the £400 and then give you the rest back?

Yeah, they'll give you what is left after costs and so on - bear in mind they would sell the car for whatever they can get for it - so you could see the car being sold for <£200 and there still being an outstanding debt

You would also have to add on costs to that £400 of the bailiffs visit, removal and storage of your goods that they are going to sell, and auction fees. A 400 quid debt can very quickly hit 1000+

[orangebird]

Sorry - to fall foul once is reasonable, but THREE TIMES? Your sister has brought all this on herself

[me283]

Originally Posted by orangebird

Sorry - to fall foul once is reasonable, but THREE TIMES? Your sister has brought all this on herself

The first two were down to a misunderstanding - it was meant to have been paid for by the company. That's why she paid them without quibbling. The third one in my opinion is down to poor administration by Transport For London (an oxymoron if ever I heard one).

As for the bailliffs, I may be wrong but if they trespass I am within my rights to ask them to leave, after which I may be entitled to use force?

[Mr_love_monkey]

Originally Posted by me283

As for the bailliffs, I may be wrong but if they trespass I am within my rights to ask them to leave, after which I may be entitled to use force?

That's not something I'd like to put to the test.....

[gazzae]

Originally Posted by Mr_love_monkey

That's not something I'd like to put to the test.....

Neither would I after seeing the size of some of them on that Bailiffs show on BBC.

[Chris]

Moved to the Lifestyle forum.

[Aragorn]

I think you'll find that the law favours bailiffs more than the 'debtor'.

Probably the safest way out of this is to pay the fine 'under protest' and take legal advice on how to recover the cost in the courts - probably small claims court. Not paying the fine will mean the problem escalating out of your control.

HTH

[me283]

Originally Posted by Aragorn

I think you'll find that the law favours bailiffs more than the 'debtor'.

Probably the safest way out of this is to pay the fine 'under protest' and take legal advice on how to recover the cost in the courts - probably small claims court. Not paying the fine will mean the problem escalating out of your control.

HTH

That's the course of action I've advised her to take. As for the bailliffs, I don't really worry about it. Not if the neighbour's Rottweiler is with me...

[Shaun]

The fact that they'll have a court order gives them the right to come onto your property. I'd also recommend you secure the house, move the car (just to be on the safe side as we all know what sods law is like) and pay under protest before claiming it back.

[me283]

Originally Posted by dellwear

The fact that they'll have a court order gives them the right to come onto your property. I'd also recommend you secure the house, move the car (just to be on the safe side as we all know what sods law is like) and pay under protest before claiming it back.

Well, I shall be sorting out some kind of appeal, that's for sure. But have the bailliffs got a court order? And how did they get one without a court case? There has been no hearing or even summons to actually get any kind of judgement in the first place. It amazes me that Transport For London can determine a fine, then enforce it, assuming guilt all along the way.