RE studies 'should cover atheism'

[ZrByte]

Originally Posted by Russ D

No, because Atheism is not an officially recognised religion!!!!

Look at it this way. Paganism etc are religions. Religious studies are there to teach and educate about religion. Atheism is not.

So why should it be part of Religious Education? As I've said, by all means teach it if you feel it neccessary, but as a seperate subject.

It is highly related though, I do not agree that it should be taught sepperatley.

It's like saying some aspects of a History lesson provides you with alternatives to religion, so why not teach History along with RE??

So you think the Bible should be removed from Religous studies then? Many christians claim this is an Exact account of things that happened and by your logic should be kept to a more appropriate subject i.e. History.

Now that I really disagree with but I had to say it to point out how flawed your argument seems to me.

When teaching athiesm any historical signifigance to how it came to be should be taught alongside it, Just like in any religion, however I dont see how that makes it any less appropriate for RE.

[ntl customer]

I think that religion should not play such an important part in schools.

When I was in primary school (about 10 - 9 years ago), Christianity and God were rammed down our throats. Even though this was not a church school in any shape or form, they made us sit in assembly and sing hymns praising God and pray to God whether we liked it or not. OK there was an option to opt out by getting your parents to write a letter to the school and asking you to be excluded from this but I doubt many parents, unless they strongly objected to it would bother to write such a letter.

I didn't believe in any religion - and I still don't to this very day. I think rather than forcing people to do something, they should have given people an easier option of opting out should they wish to rather than forcing he kids to do sit there unless their parents say so.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Nor

It should be part of religious education because without it you are assuming there is no other possibily than God exists.

No!!! Just because you are taught Religious Education doesn't mean you are going to come away believing it, or having to believe it!!

Originally Posted by Nor

In order for people to make a reasoned choice as to which religion they believe surely you can see its important to include an option that he doesn't exist ?

Yes, so have another lesson to cultivate those ideas, such as the way Physics and Biology etc would seem to promote evolution.

So you think the Bible should be removed from Religous studies then? Many christians claim this is an Exact account of things that happened and by your logic should be kept to a more appropriate subject i.e. History

Not at all, that isn't what I've said or implied, neither does it have any connection to what I've said! Christianity is based on the Bible and therefore is directly related to the subject matter.

OK there was an option to opt out by getting your parents to write a letter to the school and asking you to be excluded from this but I doubt many parents, unless they strongly objected to it would bother to write such a letter.

Without fully removing religion from schools, how else would you suggest they do this?

I think rather than forcing people to do something, they should have given people an easier option of opting out should they wish to rather than forcing he kids to do sit there unless their parents say so.

Agreed but if the parents knew there'd be RE when they first sent their children to the school then they should not have such an easy option to do that.

[ZrByte]

Originally Posted by ntl customer

I think that religion should not play such an important part in schools.

I was going to add this myself. Since religion is very much a personal choice shouldnt it be offered as after school classes for those interested?
If it is to be kept in schools I think RE should be merged with PSE, It makes much more sense to me. this would extend PSE to 2 hours a week and could cover both studies of religious and Personal education (Since the two seem to be so fundamentally related)

When I was in primary school (about 10 - 9 years ago), Christianity and God were rammed down our throats. Even though this was not a church school in any shape or form, they made us sit in assembly and sing hymns praising God and pray to God whether we liked it or not. OK there was an option to opt out by getting your parents to write a letter to the school and asking you to be excluded from this but I doubt many parents, unless they strongly objected to it would bother to write such a letter.

I think this is still standard practice, or it was when I left primary school (about 8 years ago), I never used to sing or prey though, I can remember being made a show of because I was not preying when everybody else was, something I certainly wouldnt have stood for in Highschool. They used to try to make us prey aswel though I would never co-opperate.

I didn't believe in any religion - and I still don't to this very day. I think rather than forcing people to do something, they should have given people an easier option of opting out should they wish to rather than forcing he kids to do sit there unless their parents say so.

It shouldnt really be left in the parents hands what faith you choose anyway so I disagree with the letter from parents aswel. Though I really dont see another way they could fiarly exclude people not wanting to be part of the lesson, the reason they didnt do it when I was there was because believer or not people would have opted out just for the sake of skipping a lesson.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by ZrByte

I was going to add this myself. Since religion is very much a personal choice shouldnt it be offered as after school classes for those interested?

But what about us parents who want our children to be educated in school about it? Surely people need to be educated about religion, otherwise we'd become a nation of "Religion causes wars" types.

[Nor]

Its wrong though to teach religous education as if its fact. Thats what you are doing when you don't offer the alternative during that lesson. I think, like alot of religous people, you are perhaps worried that the church will be hit in numbers if kids are actually given a choice in RE that it doesn't exist. Thats what all churches are scared of really. That numbers dwindle. Thats why after all religion is drilled into kids when they are young and impressionable.

You'll not like this but its the same as the cigarette companies. They get their claws into people when they are young, gullable and impressionable. Once indoctrinated its harder to let go than to have been given the alternatives when you were in a position to make a reasoned, informed choice.

[ZrByte]

Originally Posted by Russ D

No!!! Just because you are taught Religious Education doesn't mean you are going to come away believing it, or having to believe it!!

Doesnt mean you should be forced to learn it either, anybody willing to believe in such things will be able to learn at thier local church etc.

Yes, so have another lesson to cultivate those ideas, such as the way Physics and Biology etc would seem to promote evolution.

As we have covered though there are many types of Athiesm, evolution just being one of them (The only one covered in highschool education to memory)
The many other forms of athiesm seem to fit perfectly in with Religious studies. as I said earlier the reasons why people choose soemthing are just as valid as the reasons people do not choose something.

Not at all, that isn't what I've said or implied, neither does it have any connection to what I've said! The Bible is part of Christianity so to suggest that would be even more impractical!

You said that such things would be more appropriate for a history lesson, the Bible is as much a history book ( To believers ) as the many historical events that have led to the theory of Evolution.
To say that Athiesm should be taught with history simply because it has historical roots, is also like saying that the bible should be taught in history (Integral part of Christianity or not)

Without fully removing religion from schools, how else would you suggest they do this?

If only there was a simple answer tothis

Agreed but if the parents knew there'd be RE when they first sent their children to the school then they should not have such an easy option to do that.

Find me a school that doesnt teach RE and you have a valid argument there.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Nor

Its wrong though to teach religous education as if its fact. Thats what you are doing when you don't offer the alternative during that lesson. I think, like alot of religous people, you are perhaps worried that the church will be hit in numbers if kids are actually given a choice in RE that it doesn't exist. Thats what all churches are scared of really. That numbers dwindle. Thats why after all religion is drilled into kids when they are young and impressionable.

You'll not like this but its the same as the cigarette companies. They get their claws into people when they are young, gullable and impressionable. Once indoctrinated its harder to let go than to have been given the alternatives when you were in a position to make a reasoned, informed choice.

I have to say, without wishing to sound intentionally offensive, the biggest pile of...*whatever* I've ever been confronted with on this site.

Thats what all churches are scared of really

Really...so you've been to 'all' churches have you? You've been to my small church where the average attendance is about 15 each week?

I certainly don't care about church figures, so please don't pressume to know me or how I think. Christianity isn't about the building you attend each sunday, it's about one's relationship with Jesus which I take very seriously and wish for my daughter to do so also. I don't know enough about it to teach her everything so I want her to learn about it in school. In the interests of tolerance I want her to learn about other faiths so i have no objections to RE not being restricted to Christianity.

[Nor]

Originally Posted by Russ D

But what about us parents who want our children to be educated in school about it? Surely people need to be educated about religion, otherwise we'd become a nation of "Religion causes wars" types.

I think its wrong for parents to choose religion on behalf of their children. Look at you for example, you decided Catholicism was against your wishes, yet you believe in drilling your religion into your child.

I believe that when people are young they should be given all the options, taught about every religion, with the differences all explained. Some people believe in chritsianity, this is what they believe, some believe in Islam, this is what they believe, some don't believe in God at all, this is what they believe. Then... perhaps when a child becomes an adult they can make an informed decision for themselves. Churches shouldn't accept children into their fold until they are adults. But they do... because of what I've said above.

[ZrByte]

Originally Posted by Russ D

But what about us parents who want our children to be educated in school about it? Surely people need to be educated about religion, otherwise we'd become a nation of "Religion causes wars" types.

agreed, I think ignorance is a terrible thing, and I think I have even said that before myself "Religion Causes wars" :o sorry, though never put exactly like that.
Just like parents who want thier children to join the scouts etc it should done after school IMO.
I really cant see a way around this though, It is important Not to breed ignorance by removing the subject yet on the other hand I dont see its relevence with our schools and think it should be taught outside.
If people wherent so lazy the out of school option would work but Im fairly certain nobody would attend such a thing so that isnt really an option either.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Nor

I think its wrong for parents to choose religion on behalf of their children. Look at you for example, you decided Catholicism was against your wishes, yet you believe in drilling your religion into your child.

Excuse me? Are you intentionally trying to wind me up??

Drilling it in to her? Have you not read where I've said I want her to learn about other faiths? Or are you just assuming I'm another 'typical' religious person?

Surely if I was 'drilling it' in to her as you say, I'd be pushing for RE lessons to ONLY feature Christianity?

Quick lesson for you: as a parent, I want what I feel to be the best for my daughter. Going on my experiences of Christianity, I feel that is the best for her. Of course I'd like her to chose Jesus but it's up to her. As you know (or I'm assuming you know) Christianity is nothing if you have not chosen to accept it yourself.

[xaq141175]

"religious, philosophical and moral education" ... this is an excellent idea. it address's religion for what it is, a moral structure.

it's all inclusive and can endeaver to find what is common to all religious expressions.

we've gone one up on the french again

[Nor]

Originally Posted by Russ D

Excuse me? Are you intentionally trying to wind me up??

Drilling it in to her? Have you not read where I've said I want her to learn about other faiths? Or are you just assuming I'm another 'typical' religious person?

Surely if I was 'drilling it' in to her as you say, I'd be pushing for RE lessons to ONLY feature Christianity?

Quick lesson for you: as a parent, I want what I feel to be the best for my daughter. Going on my experiences of Christianity, I feel that is the best for her. Of course I'd like her to chose Jesus but it's up to her. As you know (or I'm assuming you know) Christianity is nothing if you have not chosen to accept it yourself.

Fair enough I apologise, drilling, was the wrong word to use. If you want your daughter to be educated about all faiths and make the decision herself (with you wishing her to choose christianity) then that sounds like the perfect set up to me and what I've been arguing about. I also think the option of no God existing and The Bible just being a collection of nice stories should be there, but thats probably where we diverge.

[ZrByte]

Originally Posted by Nor

Its wrong though to teach religous education as if its fact. Thats what you are doing when you don't offer the alternative during that lesson. I think, like alot of religous people, you are perhaps worried that the church will be hit in numbers if kids are actually given a choice in RE that it doesn't exist. Thats what all churches are scared of really. That numbers dwindle. Thats why after all religion is drilled into kids when they are young and impressionable.

You'll not like this but its the same as the cigarette companies. They get their claws into people when they are young, gullable and impressionable. Once indoctrinated its harder to let go than to have been given the alternatives when you were in a position to make a reasoned, informed choice.

Originally Posted by Russ D

I have to say, without wishing to sound intentionally offensive, the biggest pile of...*whatever* I've ever been confronted with on this site.

Wether true or not it often appears this way, the movie dogma makes fun of this as im sure you know Russ D
And I dont think Nor was implying that you personally are worried about church figures, rather Church leaders are worried.

Originally Posted by Russ D

Excuse me? Are you intentionally trying to wind me up??

Drilling it in to her? Have you not read where I've said I want her to learn about other faiths? Or are you just assuming I'm another 'typical' religious person?

Surely if I was 'drilling it' in to her as you say, I'd be pushing for RE lessons to ONLY feature Christianity?

Quick lesson for you: as a parent, I want what I feel to be the best for my daughter. Going on my experiences of Christianity, I feel that is the best for her. Of course I'd like her to chose Jesus but it's up to her. As you know (or as you SHOULD know) Christianity is nothing if you have not chosen to accept it yourself.

Drilling is deffinatley the wrong word to use here, but Nor has a slight point. I think the only way how you can Not influence your Daughters religous beliefs is to stay at a point of Religous Nutrality, do not mention your beliefs to your child as a fathers word can seem like Gospel especially at such a young age. offcourse there will come a time (Probably while she is still young) when she will ask you what you believe and you should tell her exactly.

Wether you like it or not simply saying that you believe to your child is a form of brainwashing.

When (Hopefully ) I have Kids I intend not to tell them what I am until asked, I also intend to tell them that I will not be offended if they choose to be Religous (Hell I couldnt care if they wanted to become priests), I have my Beliefs and I do not want them to influence thier decisions in any way.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Nor

Fair enough I apologise, drilling, was the wrong word to use. If you want your daughter to be educated about all faiths and make the decision herself (with you wishing her to choose christianity) then that sounds like the perfect set up to me and what I've been arguing about. I also think the option of no God existing and The Bible just being a collection of nice stories should be there, but thats probably where we diverge.

That's your right: to believe in any idea or theology which 'fits'. If you chose never to believe you should have the right to do so without ever being hassled for it.

On the flip-side I wish for my daughter to believe. The religions which like to "get 'em young" and have required services and ceremonies for children are IMO flawed. You don't get religion chosen for you, you must choose it (or God) yourself, the Bible quite clearly states this. Baptising/Christening for babies is quite contrary to Biblical teaching so why this is done is beyond me. But I digress.

I'm not saying RE lessons should be saying "Christianity is the only way, you must believe this!" as that will only server to breed contempt for other faiths, intolerance and pain, whereas I have no objection to them being taught that "Christianity SAYS this is the only way", thereby demonstrating options. What I would like to see is an RE lesson which touches upon all faiths so people can understand why flying planes in to buildings serves no purpose, why sending armies across the world to persecute anyone whose beliefs differ from yours is wrong, why torturing say, pagans goes against every moral creed.

Then, if a child comes away from RE thinking "Yeah, that aspect makes sense to me, I'll look in to that" then they are free to do so.


As I've said, I'd much prefer my daughter to chose Christianity and I shall encourage her all the way. But there will NOT be a day when i tell her "You are going to church whether you like it or not".