Religions "signs" to be banned - part 2

Sorry to bring this up again, but people may be interested in this:

From http://www.itv.com/news/1093613.html

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President Jacques Chirac has called on for a law banning Muslim headscarves, Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses from French state schools.

"In all conscience, I consider that the wearing of dress or symbols which conspicuously show religious affiliation should be banned in schools," he said in a speech on the long controversy over the role of religion in French public life.

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Personally I think the equating of a headscarf with a particular religion is being unnecessarily petty and I also think this proposed law is probably in violation of Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights:

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ARTICLE 9

1.Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.

2.Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

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Now I don't really see how banning headscarves would be "in the interest of public safety" or "protect public order, health or morals" and it certainly doesn't "protect the rights and freedoms of others".

Comments?

[Jerrek]

Agreed. I don't see any reason for such action.

[Flubflow]

Saudi Arabia (in retaliation maybe?) has now banned the import of crucifixes and buddhas.
Who cares but what really got my goat is that they have also banned teddy bears and female dolls.
see...... http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_848039.html

[Xaccers]

Totally agree with you graham.
Was discussing this with my parents this evening.
Surely in a country which has seperation between church and state (meaning the state doesn't push one specific religion) that shouldn't affect people choosing to show what religion they are?

[Ramrod]

It's probably all tied up with the 'bee in their bonnet' that the French seem to have about the gradual erosion of all things French- language, food and culture.

Westerners lament the changes that we have wrought in foreign cultures. Changes in eating habits, dress (eg. jeans being worn in countries/cultures where they are incongruous) and music. France seems to be trying to preserve it's 'Frenchness' by legislation.

[zoombini]

Would this also apply to scarves made in france?
And girls wearing scarves because its a windy day & they have just had thier hair done before going out in the evening?

Well, its not just the French that can be silly now is it.

[basa]

'Way to go Jacques' !!

IMO a bloody good idea. To me the whole idea of school uniform* was to eliminate visible differences in social and ethnic background. Surely it is not a leap too far to extend that to religion and beliefs ??

(* uniform = "...conforming to same standard or rule")

They should ban religion.

Religion is the root of all evil. There have been more deaths and wars due to regious reasons that any other.

Religion causes divide and hatred throughout the world. Especially Islam and Christianity.

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

It's probably all tied up with the 'bee in their bonnet' that the French seem to have about the gradual erosion of all things French- language, food and culture.

Westerners lament the changes that we have wrought in foreign cultures. Changes in eating habits, dress (eg. jeans being worn in countries/cultures where they are incongruous) and music. France seems to be trying to preserve it's 'Frenchness' by legislation.

You are dead right. It is one thing to make provisions to help preserve your culture if you so wish but to impose pedantic and draconian legislation (such as banning english/american phrases etc ) to force it is not really going to work in the long run. If there is one thing that you cannot ultimately stop, it is the will of the people.

The unstoppable natural erosion of cultural differences due to increased communications and travel reminds me of something Douglas Adams said in one of his books when taking about time travel: "'The past,' they say, 'is now truly like a foreign country. They do things exactly the same there.'".

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by Pierre

They should ban religion.

Religion is the root of all evil. There have been more deaths and wars due to regious reasons that any other.

Religion causes divide and hatred throughout the world. Especially Islam and Christianity.

I'm not having a pop at you but I suggest you read the original pt.1 version of this thread to find out why we don't want to take the argument in that direction again.

Point taken, didn't read the original thread. Strike my comments from the record

Originally Posted by basa

To me the whole idea of school uniform* was to eliminate visible differences in social and ethnic background.

Actually as http://histclo.hispeed.com/schun/schun.html points out "Uniforms were first instituted in 16th Century England at the charity schools for poor children. It was not until the 19th Century that the great English public schools began instituting uniforms and even later for them to be widely accepted at state schools--especially state elementary schools."

I think the reason the charity schools would have gone for uniforms is to ensure that all of their children had access to at least one reasonable set of clothing and possibly so that all the children were clothed to the same standard. So, yes, there may have been an element of the elimination of differences, but only by the charity schools actually making the difference *more* noticable!

Surely it is not a leap too far to extend that to religion and beliefs ??

I think it steps over a *big* line when the state decides it's going to dictate what religious symbols may or may not be shown.

Originally Posted by Pierre

Point taken, didn't read the original thread. Strike my comments from the record

Thanks for this

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Point taken, didn't read the original thread. Strike my comments from the record

Thank you!

Originally Posted by basa

'Way to go Jacques' !!

IMO a bloody good idea. To me the whole idea of school uniform* was to eliminate visible differences in social and ethnic background. Surely it is not a leap too far to extend that to religion and beliefs ??

(* uniform = "...conforming to same standard or rule")

Too right. If they love there religion fair enough but everyone else doesn't need to know