Israel and Lebanon

[Damien]

If a country in the middle east goes to war with Israel, would it trigger a whole load of alliances?.

[Maggy J]

Originally Posted by greencreeper

Humans are still here - on Earth

Can't argue with that..However we have changed the landscape quite a bit and our ability in this respect is growing exponentially.

The whole situation is very frightening to me. Israel have nuclear weapons (although unofficially), and I think the US will always send troops in to help. Iran will probably get involved too and has a large army. I can see a pan-Arab alliance forming against Israel and the US. It could all get very nasty indeed.

[Damien]

Originally Posted by Macca371

The whole situation is very frightening to me. Israel have nuclear weapons (although unofficially), and I think the US will always send troops in to help. Iran will probably get involved too and has a large army. I can see a pan-Arab alliance forming against Israel and the US. It could all get very nasty indeed.

Middle east **** kicking time then.

[dd2k]

Originally Posted by Macca371

And two UK ships have been ordered to depart for Lebanon : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5184018.stm

I just hope that we don't get dragged into this conflict, and that they are going to rescue British citizens in Lebanon.

2 ships sounds more like an extraction mission rather than show of force. if that was the aim they'd prep more ships

[Maggy J]

Originally Posted by Damien

Middle east **** kicking time then.

Much more scary than North Korea...

Originally Posted by Damien

Middle east **** kicking time then.

Well, American military might is ridiculously big. On a rank list of countries in the world in terms of military expenditure, the US comes first, and has a total bigger than the other top 14 states.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/.../2067rank.html

It has the power to win if it were to happen.

[dd2k]

Originally Posted by Macca371

Well, American military might is ridiculously big. On a rank list of countries in the world in terms of military expenditure, the US comes first, and has a total bigger than the other top 14 states.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/.../2067rank.html

It has the power to win if it were to happen.

Depends on how much of that might they will commit and how much of it is highly skilled, i imagine their best units are in iraq right now

Originally Posted by dd2k

Depends on how much of that might they will commit and how much of it is highly skilled, i imagine their best units are in iraq right now

Yes. Plus, I don't think even the American public would support another war, especially on this scale.

[dd2k]

Originally Posted by Macca371

Yes. Plus, I don't think even the American public would support another war, especially on this scale.

i dont think they have the resources to commit, if the us got involved it could get very nasty and require complete focus. but with iraq still fairly dependant on outside security its too much for america to handle
but as regards to public support they'd get enough for bush's likeing

[Damien]

Didnt the last time the surrounding countrys gang up, they stopped after 6 days?

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

Israel had ceased to exist until after WW11.It was the desire of the jewish survivors of that war to want to start up the state of Israel again that led to the terrorist actions of the founders of the present Israel to get a separate jewish state that has led us step by step to the troubles we now have.

The inevitable resentment of dispossessed palestinians to the Israeli people seemed to be one that they either didn't care about or just didn't forsee.
Or the fact that the surrounding Arab states would inevitably side with the dispossessed arabs.

The claim that Israel is the only democracy in the middle east doesn't wash with me.It is a lie.It is a democracy based on the actions of someone occupying a country with guns and saying to the inhabitants "b*gger off as I claim this land in the name of my faith".*

However Israel as a state has stood for 50 years and there is no going back that I can see.The problem seems to be that Israel has always dealt with arabic and Palestinian aggression by over doing things.They have increasingly used the sledgehammer to crack a nut tactics to deal with the terrorists and inevitably the number of innocents dragged into the conflict has grown.This might work in the short term but it just makes the resolve of their opponents grow stronger year by year and adds to their number.It's a lesson that Israel doesn't seem to want to learn that diplomacy will be the ONLY way to sort out the problems with their neighbours.


*Before anyone drags Iraq into this there is a difference.The Allies will be leaving Iraq as soon as their little legs will allow.Sooner if they can save face about it.

*cough*

With the growing anti-semetism in Europe at the end of the 19th century, the Zionist movement called for Jews to have a safe home in their ancestrial land, which at the time was Palestine under Ottoman rule.
After WW1, the British were given control of Palestine by the League of Nations. Incidently, at the same time, the LoN created Lebenon and Syria (who saw Lebanon as part of their land) with the inteference of France.
Part of their mandate was to build a safe home for the Jews. In case you don't get that, the precurser to the UN said Britain must create a safe homeland for the Jews.
The British decreed that Jewish Palestinians (as they were back then) were not allowed to live to the East of the river Jordan, while non-Jewish Palestinians could live where ever they wanted.
The British then carved up Palestine (this bit is important) giving Palestine to the East of the River Jordan to a Hashemite arab who'd been expelled from Saudi and renamed this part of Palestine to Transjordan.
The difference between lifestyles of non-Jewish Palestinians, and European born Jewish Palestinians caused tensions and there were many riots through out the remaining land of Palestine.
With the end of WW2, and the creation of the UN, the British had enough of the troubles, and handed it over to the UN, failing in their LoN mandate.
The UN proposed a two state solition, one for the Jews (who agreed) and one for the Arabs (who totally dissagreed).
Interestingly, the division gave the Jews the malaria areas and desert, while the arabs would have had the high grounds with no open waters.
Ben-Gurion declared the independance of the state of Israel in accodance with the UN plans when the Brits left, and the neighbouring countries invaded.
Over the radio came clames that the Jews were raping and pillaging, and Syria would give all the land to the Arabs if they drove the Jews into the sea.
The plan was to start an arab uprising and slaughter the Jews, but instead, families fled into neighbouring countries such as Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt.
Jews in arab nations such as Morocco were killed and many fled to Israel fearing for their lives.
Meanwhile, rather than welcoming their arab brothers who they had promised land etc to, Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon forced the arabs into refrugee camps with appauling sanitation and facilities.
During the ensuing wars, land was captured from Israel, and won back, and land was captured by Israel, such as the Golan Heights (where Syrians would take pot shots at Israeli civilians driving along the main road nearby), the West Bank (part of Jordan), Sinai and Gaza (both part of Egypt).
Israel was able to give Sinai back to Egypt in return for peace. Egypt didn't want to take Gaza back.

Throughout the troubles, all sides have over reacted, or been too pig headed to find a solution, or been interfered with by other nations (Britain and France in the Suez for example).
It is foolish to assume it is an Israel/Palestine problem, as peace can never be reached unless a plan is developed which the Syrians, Iranians and etc agree on, even if the Palestinians want that plan.

If you ever go to Israel, take a trip up to the sea of Galilee, go to the museum with the 2000 year old fishing boat, and in the upper floors, there is a museum dedicated to a man who spent most of his adult life trying to come up with ways for a two state solution.

[Maggy J]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

*cough*

With the growing anti-semetism in Europe at the end of the 19th century, the Zionist movement called for Jews to have a safe home in their ancestrial land, which at the time was Palestine under Ottoman rule.
After WW1, the British were given control of Palestine by the League of Nations. Incidently, at the same time, the LoN created Lebenon and Syria (who saw Lebanon as part of their land) with the inteference of France.
Part of their mandate was to build a safe home for the Jews. In case you don't get that, the precurser to the UN said Britain must create a safe homeland for the Jews.
The British decreed that Jewish Palestinians (as they were back then) were not allowed to live to the East of the river Jordan, while non-Jewish Palestinians could live where ever they wanted.
The British then carved up Palestine (this bit is important) giving Palestine to the East of the River Jordan to a Hashemite arab who'd been expelled from Saudi and renamed this part of Palestine to Transjordan.
The difference between lifestyles of non-Jewish Palestinians, and European born Jewish Palestinians caused tensions and there were many riots through out the remaining land of Palestine.
With the end of WW2, and the creation of the UN, the British had enough of the troubles, and handed it over to the UN, failing in their LoN mandate.
The UN proposed a two state solition, one for the Jews (who agreed) and one for the Arabs (who totally dissagreed).
Interestingly, the division gave the Jews the malaria areas and desert, while the arabs would have had the high grounds with no open waters.
Ben-Gurion declared the independance of the state of Israel in accodance with the UN plans when the Brits left, and the neighbouring countries invaded.
Over the radio came clames that the Jews were raping and pillaging, and Syria would give all the land to the Arabs if they drove the Jews into the sea.
The plan was to start an arab uprising and slaughter the Jews, but instead, families fled into neighbouring countries such as Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt.
Jews in arab nations such as Morocco were killed and many fled to Israel fearing for their lives.
Meanwhile, rather than welcoming their arab brothers who they had promised land etc to, Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon forced the arabs into refrugee camps with appauling sanitation and facilities.
During the ensuing wars, land was captured from Israel, and won back, and land was captured by Israel, such as the Golan Heights (where Syrians would take pot shots at Israeli civilians driving along the main road nearby), the West Bank (part of Jordan), Sinai and Gaza (both part of Egypt).
Israel was able to give Sinai back to Egypt in return for peace. Egypt didn't want to take Gaza back.

Throughout the troubles, all sides have over reacted, or been too pig headed to find a solution, or been interfered with by other nations (Britain and France in the Suez for example).
It is foolish to assume it is an Israel/Palestine problem, as peace can never be reached unless a plan is developed which the Syrians, Iranians and etc agree on, even if the Palestinians want that plan.

If you ever go to Israel, take a trip up to the sea of Galilee, go to the museum with the 2000 year old fishing boat, and in the upper floors, there is a museum dedicated to a man who spent most of his adult life trying to come up with ways for a two state solution.

I agree with all you have said but at the bottom of all of the present day situation is the arrogance and dismissal of Palestinian grievances.

I have no truck with the terrorism in the middle east whomever is involved.Both sides are as bad as each other with the true victims those who just want peace and stability and above all equal and fair and just treatment to get on with their lives.I just do not want people to regard the Israeli government being the more angelic of the protaganists just because they are democratically elected.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Macca371

The whole situation is very frightening to me. Israel have nuclear weapons (although unofficially), and I think the US will always send troops in to help. Iran will probably get involved too and has a large army. I can see a pan-Arab alliance forming against Israel and the US. It could all get very nasty indeed.

Iran don't need to fight, if they switch the oil off, it's price would double immediately, I wonder if the U.S would be quite so supportive of Israel's policies then.

[NitroNutter]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Iran don't need to fight, if they switch the oil off, it's price would double immediately, I wonder if the U.S would be quite so supportive of Israel's policies then.

US hasnt anything to do with Iran oil for a long time, doubt they would give a bag of monkeys nuts wether iran keeps oil flowing or not, in fact they would probably prefer them to turn it off.

You should be more concerned if Iran, Libya and Syria and Korea become involved, either with supply or actual action, a big war out there will have undoubted consequesnces world wide in terms of war and local terrorism is bound to accelerate.