Doctors Bonus if cut back on Sick

[Chrysalis]

Some of the points I wanted to bring up have already been raised.

The whole report is wrong info, I dont know if the the mp is to blame for that to make it sound like the changes are subtle or the news got it wrong. But there is no long term incapacity benefit claimants been signed off by gp's, when a person starts a claim and they were previously working (not unemployed) before the claim they have to show a letter from the employer to confirm they lost the job due to illness and provide sicknotes from gp for 6 months, then they are subject to a PCA which is an assessment to see if they are fit for work, at this point the DWP takes over and decides if the patient is ill or not. If the claimant was previously unemployed anyway on JSA or some other benefit then they are subject to a PCA within the first 6 weeks, the only time a patient doesnt need a PCA is if they are excempt for reasons such as severe mental illness or a upcoming major surgery or they are dying and dont have long to live. These last few categories are what the government is classifying as severe conditions. So basically most claimants who have been deemed ill by the DWP themselves will be forced to attend job interviews when they are not capable of working anyway, what isnt been reported on here is that a lot of conditions may be fluctuating where the patient will be feeling ok one day but not all week and would be having sickies every week, they may only be able to work for 1-2 hours a day, there is a reason they are deemed unwell. For mental illnesses such as depression a new approach might work in encouraging them to find work, but forcing it to avoid losing money is wrong again. Their is also other obvious problems eg. if you have a mobility problem you have to pay for taxi fares to goto the jobcentre and for job interviews, if an employee has an incapacity benefit in front of him alongside 5 healthy applicants I cannot see him choosing the person who is ill.

When a PCA is due the way the gp is involved is they get a med4 form asking for details of the illness and expected time of ill, this form is used as evidence but usually the PCA report is used above it if it disagrees so if the PCA says fit for work then the med4 will usually be ignored and benefit stopped.

Their appears to be a problem from what I see is when having a PCA and deemed ill some mental illnesses are then not reviewed again for 3 years some even longer, perhaps this gap can be brought down to something more reasonable like a year, these kind of changes I would expect are realistic.

The real fix for the problem is sort out the health system so people actually get better, the nhs is only improving in life threatening conditions and so the minor conditions that normally keep people on incapacity benefit can often go on for many months or years because they are simply spending most of the time waiting for their appointments. I also think gp's wont be willingly signing med4 forms, signing a sicknote for a few weeks of stress I think is very reasonable but a different kettle of fish to signing a med4 saying that person cannot goto work and many doctors would draw the line their if they thought that wasn't the case.

The previous draft on the new legislation was also talking about companies appealing all sicknotes by gp's even for working people but I guess that got scrapped since it would cause too much uproar, however the ill and disabled are weak and the only group of people yet to recieve help from this labour government and as such wont get heard when this gets pushed through.

People get sick this government should learn to live with it, we all pay taxes and expect if the bad ever happens we get the help needed. If only the government was so enthusiastic about tax evasion then this 12bill would seem like pennies.

[etccarmageddon]

so you could end up with an insane swing in the other direction - instead of a 'sicky' nation where loads of people are faking it you'll be begging for a sick note from your GP or whoever assesses you even if you feel like death warmed up. money should not be used to 'bribe' your GP in reducing sick notes - instead the system should be such that people cant fake it.

---------- Post added at 07:36 ---------- Previous post was at 07:35 ----------

the genuine sick will suffer. especially those who aren't assertive or of lower IQs who cant stick up for themselves.

[Angua]

Locally you have to work very hard to stay off work. There are several people in the neighbourhood with various mental health problems which prevent them working for any length of time, and to be quite honest I would be very worried if one of them in particular actually got forced in to work.

What is most galling about these proposals is the presumption that many of these long term sick do not want to work. Judging by the people round here it does not seem to be the case that they are idle scroungers. Those that are ready willing and able to work, can and do get jobs when they are ready.

[Xaccers]

I'm not suprised at this.
My interest in the violent crime reduction bill has confirmed to me that the goverment don't have a clue about the topic they're legislating on.

Look at the doctors appointment issue.
People couldn't make an appointment to see their doctor for 2 weeks, so rather than increase the numbers of GP's to cope with the load in the areas which needd it, the goverment set a target of getting an appointment within 48 hours.
Now if you're running a surgury and you don't have the staff to manage to hit that target (which most don't otherwise they'd be doing it already) then you have to come up with some other way of hitting the target.
So you decide that patients can only get appointments on the day, and have to phone up to get one (they can't just turn up and cause a scene).
Problem solved, the first lot of people through on the phones are able to get appointments, the rest aren't, and therefore don't count.
Target reached, hurrah for the goverment, now no one has to wait 2 weeks to get an appointment according to the documented figures.
Too bad we know different.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

I'm not suprised at this.
My interest in the violent crime reduction bill has confirmed to me that the goverment don't have a clue about the topic they're legislating on.

Look at the doctors appointment issue.
People couldn't make an appointment to see their doctor for 2 weeks, so rather than increase the numbers of GP's to cope with the load in the areas which needd it, the goverment set a target of getting an appointment within 48 hours.
Now if you're running a surgury and you don't have the staff to manage to hit that target (which most don't otherwise they'd be doing it already) then you have to come up with some other way of hitting the target.
So you decide that patients can only get appointments on the day, and have to phone up to get one (they can't just turn up and cause a scene).
Problem solved, the first lot of people through on the phones are able to get appointments, the rest aren't, and therefore don't count.
Target reached, hurrah for the goverment, now no one has to wait 2 weeks to get an appointment according to the documented figures.
Too bad we know different.

You are spot on, its the same around here.

I needed to see a doctor when I was suffering very badly from stress a few years ago. I phoned for an appointment and the earlies they could offer was around a 3 week wait, they said the only other option was to phone on the day that I wanted to see a doctor.

I did exactly that, I got into work and when the surgery opened I phoned for an appointment. When I eventually got through they offered me one in about 40 minutes time, I explained that it was a hour and a quarter away from the surgery. The receptionist then suggeted I try tomorrow!
In contrast a few people in work who are regular visitors to the doctor (often for very small issues) seem to have no problem getting an appointment. The whole system of getting to see a doctor these days is a farce, when someone is not a regular visitor but needs to see one they are placed behind the regulars.

I was also very shocked to hear two guys talking in the waiting room about seeing a doctor to get a sick note, because one said "I hate working nights" and the other said "My contract has been delayed, so I am going sick to get more money"

[Chrysalis]

Escapee those guys you reffering to were talking about short term sick notes tho, the proposals above are reffering to people on long term incapacity benefit. It is already very hard to prove you are unfit for work on a PCA, and the government is using the fact people pull sickies of work as justification to change the way incapacity benefit works.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Escapee those guys you reffering to were talking about short term sick notes tho, the proposals above are reffering to people on long term incapacity benefit. It is already very hard to prove you are unfit for work on a PCA, and the government is using the fact people pull sickies of work as justification to change the way incapacity benefit works.

The one was talking about a job at Remploy, who I understand are known to take a lot of long term people on. These two guys certainly seemed to know their way around the system very well.

Interesting program on HTV Wales earlier including an item about sick levels in Wales, it was something like 22% of the population are on long term sick in the Merthyr area. I guess most of this will be blamed on the previous governments policy of putting people on the sick to make the unemployment figures look better, then again I guess Tony hasn't been in power long enough to get this sorted before.

I do feel sorry for genuine cases, I can imagine those people watching that program and being worried.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by punky

And if doctors are writing too many sick notes when they shouldn't be... Wouldn't that deserve some kind of punishment, rather than just bribing them to do their job properly, which they should have been doing in the first place?

Just a thought.

It's very difficult to look a patient in the eye and tell them that I won't write them a sick note if they have asked me for one.....and thats in the private sector. Goodness knows what it's like for a GP who is seeing a nhs patient who may be violent/disturbed/vocal.

[Chrysalis]

bribing to do job properly depends how you look at it. Their is obviously people fakign sickness I am not going to argue that point. But this bribery is going to motivate some gp's to not write a sicknote when they should be writing one which is ultimately unfair to the patient. We are going to end up with a scenario where the gp might be asking the patient for £50 to write the note else it wouldnt be viable, ridicolous situation. If you think gp's dont do this kind of thing my last one before he retired was charging £5 or £10 for sicknotes depending on his mood.

[NitroNutter]

The only real reason for this is because they cannot do the job they are supposed to be doing, so they opt for the next best thing and thats to pull the wool over the general publics eyes (or try to).

The job they should be doing is catching those who are working and claiming, there are many around. And isnt it so easy to whip up the public frenzy by exposing one or two on prime time to justify penalising genuine people regardless. This is the easy way out for them. Reducing benefits for those on long term is illegal but as the governemt and lords make the law it soon wont be. Benefit is not exactly a wealthy lifestyle (unless your working as well on the sly). Reducing it will have only one of two effects. It will make more appear like criminals as they are forced into a life of crime or the other is they will live in such a degrading level of poverty that severe depression will likely end their lives.

At the end of the day so waht if theres so many cheaters friggin catch them Or shoudl we really start to look at human nature in the same light for all types of crime. There may well be 10% on the benefit fiddle but I would put a whole lot of money on that theres a far larger percentage of the population of people profiteering from many criminal activities on a daily basis, therefore by this proposition to take it to its full extent everyone should now go to jail. And I refer back to the first paragraph where its clearly obvious that governments cannot do the Job they are supposed to be doing so they are earning their money thru fasle pretences, yep that to is a criminal act.

How many times are they going to playback the same video footage of the same few cheaters they have caught and each time theres chatter of crippling disability or incapacity is about or should I say incapacitating the disabled. Yes the golfer guy was televised yet again not so long ago when apparently some woman was caught building. AFIAC if these few a-holes are gonna put the lives of my wife and I in jeapordy and most likely lose our children I will do time and that friggin woman will be the first to get it.

By the way who heres ready for a nice big paycut as with all the recent job cuts and redundancies and outsourcing and 1 million disabled back to work minimum its really going to be an employers market place. Most legitimate benefit claimers are living on about half the weekly average wage a working family gets for eg the local average wage in my area is around £570 a week for men and around £520 a week for women. A family locally gets substantially less than half that amount on benefit and that is taking everything into account and I mean everything, including the dla, meds etc. Put us lot out into the employment market and we will take your Jobs and save the companies loads of moolah, probably produce even lower quality goods than ever before (which would be hard to do really in todays economic climate) and the directors will run home with fatter wallets than ever seen before with it.

Its also a regular thing to roll on about benefit claimers when theres a troubled economic climate about. Its another indicator that a crash is around the corner or perhaps its allready well in place with all the strummed up unrealistic inflation figures, but with all the credit being thrown around it has not yet kicked everyone where it hurts.

[Salu]

"Bribing" as it’s been put, it is nothing new with UK GPs and the government and on the face of it seems wrong. However, you need to look into the history of this in order to understand a bit more.
Firstly, general practice is hard to recruit into. There is little opportunity or scope for private practice and patient expectancy is high etc etc...you are constantly seeing patients in the initial stages of their disease or chronic stages which decreases your experience of all stages... etc...
They are also independent contractors to the NHS PCTs (primary care trusts) and are not directly employed by them. This means they can’t directly be managed but just “influencedâ€Â�â₠¬Â¦.The NHS PCTs need them and they know this. The GPs need the NHS PCTs etc but the favour is really in the hands of the GPs. The government impose targets through the PCTS and sometimes the GPs scoff as they are “more interested in patient care than bl**dy targetsâ€Â�. The PCTs argue that following the targets will increase patient care….and so the circuitous argument continues. The government do however hold one strong piece of ammo……money. It’s dressed up as “bonusesâ€Â� but it’s the threat of withholding money that “bribesâ€Â� the GPs into following the targets. Not being able to fund their own personal bonuses and also not being able to afford to send patients to wherever..
This latest initiative is more about helping GPs better manage long term sickness rather than take the easy road of handing out sick notes. When faced with a constantly full waiting room of patients who all want 20m out of their 10 allotted minutes it’s rather tempting to hand a sick note out.

The other thing to point out is that if you ask to see a named specific GP then you automatically exclude yourself from the promise of being able to see a GP in under 48 hours. That promise applies to being able to see "any" GP and not just one who you normally see.
I could go on about patients coming in to get a BP or blood test done and insisting to see a specific GP rather than the practice nurse whcih takes an appointment up. I could mention about the patients that never bother turning up to appointments which block others from attending. But I'll stop their as I have a lecture to give....

[Chrysalis]

NitroNutter made a good point which shows how biased the bbc is, they produce a documentary called "on the fiddle" around the time the incapacity benefit green paper is produced and their news also has headlines about benefit reform, not just a tad of a coincidence perhaps? I bet we wont see a documentary from the bbc showing the loops people have to jump through to get the message across they are ill the appeal's they have to go through and been forced onto income support with 20% reducted whilst they await their appeal. Many people in particular childless claimants will only have £55 to live on and incapacity threshold was raised above income support a few years back meaning you dont even get income support now so pay for prescriptions etc. as well. The ill and disabled is the only vulnerable part of the population this government hasnt helped. I agree it is aimed at putting the empoyers in the driving seat and is a sign that the economy is struggling, I am still disgusted by brown's reasoning as to provide money for other services instead. I think poverty in our own country should be dealt with before we start donating billions for world poverty.

[Enuff]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

It's very difficult to look a patient in the eye and tell them that I won't write them a sick note if they have asked me for one.....and thats in the private sector. Goodness knows what it's like for a GP who is seeing a nhs patient who may be violent/disturbed/vocal.

Dont violent/disturbed/vocal patients exist in the private sector?

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Dodger444

Dont violent/disturbed/vocal patients exist in the private sector?

Extremely rare! (touch wood )

---------- Post added at 23:06 ---------- Previous post was at 23:04 ----------

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

I think poverty in our own country should be dealt with before we start donating billions for world poverty.

....though I do wish they wouldn't classify people who have the money for dvd's/car/fags/booze etc... as being in poverty

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

NitroNutter made a good point which shows how biased the bbc is, they produce a documentary called "on the fiddle" around the time the incapacity benefit green paper is produced and their news also has headlines about benefit reform, not just a tad of a coincidence perhaps? I bet we wont see a documentary from the bbc showing the loops people have to jump through to get the message across they are ill the appeal's they have to go through and been forced onto income support with 20% reducted whilst they await their appeal. Many people in particular childless claimants will only have £55 to live on and incapacity threshold was raised above income support a few years back meaning you dont even get income support now so pay for prescriptions etc. as well. The ill and disabled is the only vulnerable part of the population this government hasnt helped. I agree it is aimed at putting the empoyers in the driving seat and is a sign that the economy is struggling, I am still disgusted by brown's reasoning as to provide money for other services instead. I think poverty in our own country should be dealt with before we start donating billions for world poverty.

If you had the slightest idea about television production then you would know that the programme was probably planned (and even its air dates were likely already sheduled) long before any green paper was known about. It is far more likely to be the other way round i.e. that the government found out about the production of the programme early on (after all their civil servants were actually involved in it you know) and then produced a green paper, released at the right time, to take advantage of it.