Google refuses data request

[Paddy1]

Originally Posted by punky

I think its rather worrying when businesses get so big they can blackmail the government like that

Couldn't agree more but that's how it is these days. Governments are now in the pockets of big business.

Originally Posted by Damien

Google are right not to hand over a massive amount of users searches to the goverement when its not relating to a crime

Also agree here.

[Damien]

The US really needs a stronger privacy law.

I think stuff like this is one of the most important problems we face going into a digital age and Google must stand firm on this otherwise it sets a terrible message to future requests of users information

[punky]

I don't really see as it is a privacy issue.

They aren't asking for information like:

"<ip> is searching for <search term>"

They are asking for 1 million random search terms and 1 million random IPs. They can't be tallied together, so I don't see how anyone's privacy is being evaded.

The US government is being shady here in not being upfront about the reasons it wants this information, but Google isn't innocent. The US government suspects Google is aiding terrorism, and Google knows it is. The cynic in me thinks that is why they are a bit funny about informing the US government about what what its users are searching for.

Google are complicit with the Chinese government, so they are hardly EF/human rights supporters are they? They are just trying to save their own skin.

So don't think its some prinicipaled stand for human rights and privacy.

[punky]

That should read: EFF/human rights supporters, (as in the Electronic Frontier Foundation)

[Damien]

Originally Posted by punky

I don't really see as it is a privacy issue.

They aren't asking for information like:

"<ip> is searching for <search term>"

They are asking for 1 million random search terms and 1 million random IPs. They can't be tallied together, so I don't see how anyone's privacy is being evaded.

The US government is being shady here in not being upfront about the reasons it wants this information, but Google isn't innocent. The US government suspects Google is aiding terrorism, and Google knows it is. The cynic in me thinks that is why they are a bit funny about informing the US government about what what its users are searching for.

Google are complicit with the Chinese government, so they are hardly EF/human rights supporters are they? They are just trying to save their own skin.

So don't think its some prinicipaled stand for human rights and privacy.

First of all I do not see how Google is aiding terrorism, other than people searching the web for bomb making equipment which is simply a side effect of google search being free and powerful.

I also do not see how they are complict with China, if i recall it was Yahoo who aided the Chinese government into arresting a journalist.

I dont see how this is a fair use of information, its not relating to a crime so where do they get the right to force google to hand over information to them?

[BBKing]

If a rapist was caught leaving the scene of a crime on someone's CCTV and the store owner refused to comply with a subpoena for the video footage, would you be happier with that?

Completely pointless analogy - the true analogy would be 'we know rapes happen so we're asking for CCTV from thousands of random shops to see how many rapes are on them'. It's not the request being made that's the problem, it's a) the fact that it isn't related to any crime that needs solving and b) the potential implications for the next request down the line, considering the current US administration's penchant for ignoring the constitution and executing arbitary powers it has assigned itself. Someone's got to stand up and fight them - the request is clearly disproportionate.

And, yes, corporate interests controlling governments are a Bad Thing. Ask Halliburton and Enron.

[Damien]

This is simple to defend a law? I.E Its a poltical issue. So how can the goverment get an ORDER saying hand over your data?

[Stuart C]

Originally Posted by Damien

First of all I do not see how Google is aiding terrorism, other than people searching the web for bomb making equipment which is simply a side effect of google search being free and powerful.

I don't think google is deliberately helping terrorism.

I also do not see how they are complict with China, if i recall it was Yahoo who aided the Chinese government into arresting a journalist.

The google you get in China has been edited, voluntarily by Google, to exclude any anti-government propaganda websites. IMO, this is hardly compatible with the idea of information for everyone upon which Google was founded.

I dont see how this is a fair use of information, its not relating to a crime so where do they get the right to force google to hand over information to them?

If the US has PROOF that google has been helping in criminal acts, then they should persue access through normal legal channels.

[punky]

First of all I do not see how Google is aiding terrorism, other than people searching the web for bomb making equipment which is simply a side effect of google search being free and powerful.

That's the point - its unknown. The US government has been a bit edgy of late about the Internet and terrorism. They know terrorists are using the Internet (its funny how using infidel technology becomes acceptable when you are using it to slaughter innocent people), but they are a bit in the dark how much and in what contexts it is being used. Because they don't know what to fight, they don't know how to fight it. This way is better than writing vague-catch-all laws to fit hypothetical situations.

Of course, I could be wrong. This might be about trying to write online anti-pornography laws, but i'm not so sure.

I am a fan of very small, intrusive governments, but I don't really think a request like this is unreasonable.

[punky]

As a side note Damien, you're pretty much on the money about the lack of privacy in the US. Itd actually fairly worrying, but noone seems really bothered.

I can go on a website for the local tax collector's office, and searching by an address find out an owner's name and wether they have paid their property taxes or not, and find out how much they owe. Another government website (property appraisers), searching by address, will bring up the supplement mailing addresses of each property (a lot of homes around here are owned by English people, this website reveals their English addresses). Another website lists all political donations by address (which again, reveals their name & political affliations). You can get a CD from the county's courthouse which lists all the names and addresses and supplement addresses for each property in the county.

I know someone who was arrested and charged with a motoring offence recently. Withing a couple of days he said he was recieving 5-10 letters a day from attorneys touting for business. Its not a coincidence. they must be finding this information out somewhere, and its probably not restricted to just attorneys.

I think all these examples are far, far more worrying than the Google situation, but noone really seems to care here.

[basa]

Originally Posted by BBKing

.......... and b) the potential implications for the next request down the line, considering the current US administration's penchant for ignoring the constitution and executing arbitary powers it has assigned itself. Someone's got to stand up and fight them - the request is clearly disproportionate.

Nail and head come to mind. This request is IMO just paving the way for more intrusive requests and looking at this should worry us as to just how much information Google has on its hard drives.