China's administration welcomed to the UK by the Queen.

[punky]

The Queen welcomed the Chinese administration (including President Hu Jintao) on an official full state visit today. He was treated to a carriage ride down the Mall and a state banquet with the Queen

My views on China should be well known, but I'll run through them briefly again. I am pretty disgusted with the monarchy atm, but then again nothing much in this country surprises me any more. I rate welcoming China to our country as equal to when we welcomed Mugabe, and I wasn't too pleased about that either.

Some of my gripes with China:

1. Lack of human and civil rights, with violent law abuse, including: corrupt judiciary, forced confessions, cruel punishments and torture, detention without trial, indefinite house/prison arrest, censorship, land seizures, conscription, restrictions on privacy, assembly, religion, movement, association, education, worker's rights, and reproductive freedom (forced abortions and sterilisation).

2. Authoritarian government and lack of democracy

3. Tibet

4. Communism

There's probably more, but that's what I can think of off the top of my head.

Last time they came in 1999 anti-CCP (Chinese Communist Party) protesters were prohibited from protesting peacefully directly in front of the administration. Thankfully this visit was different and protesters were allowed to protest peacefully. I was walking down Whitehall the other day, and there was a protester there. He had signs and such and was passing out a newspaper called Nine Commentaries on the Communist Party. Its part of The Epoch Times. I've had a flick through and on their websites, and definitely looks like a good read. I am really ill at ease with the way the west seems to cuddle up to China when it suits them.

Well, you all know what I think... What about everyone else? Is this behaviour acceptable? If not, should China be ostracized for its behaviour until it changes? Unite against China and enforce change? Allow the status quo to continue?

[Chris]

We can't upset China now. The cost of bras would go through the roof.

[Ramrod]

I agree with you Punky but in the interest of the greater good it's probably wiser for the world to cuddle up to the Chinese and 'convert' them bit by bit. If we come down hard and ostrasise them then they would probably go all hardline again. This way they keep selling us cheap goods while they are slowly converted to capitalism by the back door. Win-win situation....

[SOSAGES]

its not our country they can do what they like i wouldnt like it if they came over here and told me what to do

[Damien]

Originally Posted by SOSAGES

its not our country they can do what they like i wouldnt like it if they came over here and told me what to do

You wouldnt like it the goverment was telling you what to do, shooting people, blocking google, bbc news and so on. They are not allowed to search for democracy on the internet!!!

That said they are slowly coming around so it is best to bring them into the coummunity bit by bit.

[jrhnewark]

They are slowly coming round, it would appear. But I can't - at this stage in time - thank monarchy for welcoming the *******s with open arms.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by punky

should China be ostracized for its behaviour until it changes?

£2.5 Billion of trade with them seems to grant a lot of leeway...!

Unite against China and enforce change?

Why not? We did it with Iraq!

[SlackDad]

Here's just few facts about China from Amnesty International:

To summarise:

Violations in the context of economic reform

The authorities took an increasingly hard line against people protesting against house demolitions and evictions, particularly in large cities such as Shanghai and Beijing, where demolitions of old homes were accelerated by Beijing’s preparations for hosting the Olympics in 2008. Scores of peaceful protesters were detained and lawyers assisting in such cases were at risk of arrest or intimidation.

Violations in the context of the spread of HIV/AIDS

Increasing openness on health issues after the outbreak of SARS appeared to result in greater official concern for those affected by HIV/AIDS, but the authorities failed to meet demands for full transparency and accountability in the context of the spread of the virus. Official figures of 840,000 people infected with HIV and 80,000 AIDS patients were considered to be serious underestimates.

Repression of spiritual and religious groups

Members of unofficial spiritual or religious groups, including some Qi Gong groups and unregistered Christian groups, continued to be arbitrarily detained, tortured and ill-treated.

Political activists and Internet users

Political activists and Internet users continued to be arrested after peacefully exercising their rights to freedom of expression and association. Many were imprisoned after unfair trials, often on vaguely defined charges relating to “state secrets” or “subversion”. One dissident, Wang Bingzhang, was sentenced to life imprisonment on “terrorist” charges

Torture, administrative detention and unfair trials

Torture and ill-treatment remained widespread in many state institutions. Common methods included kicking, beating, electric shocks, suspension by the arms, shackling in painful positions, and sleep and food deprivation. Women in detention were vulnerable to rape and sexual abuse.

Death penalty

The death penalty continued to be used extensively and arbitrarily as a result of political interference. People were executed for non-violent crimes such as tax fraud and pimping as well as drug offences and violent crimes. The authorities continued to keep national statistics on death sentences and executions secret. By the end of the year, with the limited records available, AI had recorded 1,639 death sentences and 726 executions, although the true figures were believed to be much higher.

North Korean asylum-seekers

Hundreds, possibly thousands, of North Korean asylum-seekers in northeast China were arrested and forcibly returned during the year. China continued to deny North Koreans access to any refugee determination procedures despite evidence that many had a genuine claim to asylum and in breach of the UN Refugee Convention to which China is a state party. Reports suggested that the majority of those crossing the border were women who were at risk of being sold as brides or forced into prostitution. In August China reportedly increased its military presence along the border in an apparent attempt to curb the flow of North Koreans into China.

Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region

The authorities continued to use the international “war against terrorism” to justify harsh repression in Xinjiang, which continued to result in serious human rights violations against the ethnic Uighur community. The authorities continued to make little distinction between acts of violence and acts of passive resistance. Repression was often manifested through assaults on Uighur culture, such as the closure of several mosques, restrictions on the use of the Uighur language and the banning of certain Uighur books and journals.

Tibet Autonomous Region and other ethnic Tibetan areas

A series of releases of high-profile Tibetan prisoners of conscience during 2002 was not maintained in 2003, and freedom of religion, association and expression continued to be severely restricted. Contacts between the Chinese authorities and representatives of the Tibetan government in exile apparently failed to result in any significant policy changes. Over 100 Tibetans, mainly Buddhist monks and nuns, continued to be imprisoned in violation of their fundamental human rights, and arbitrary arrests and unfair trials continued.

Just keep that red carpet rolling.

[punky]

Originally Posted by SlackDad

Here's just few facts about China from Amnesty International:

To summarise:

<snip>

Just keep that red carpet rolling.

Outstanding post mate

[David F]

Originally Posted by SOSAGES

its not our country they can do what they like i wouldnt like it if they came over here and told me what to do

Im sorry no offence ment but this post and from wence it came have given me the laugh of the year


And I do agree 100% with you Punky

[Xaccers]

Lets see, in countries we've ostracised because we don't like what they do and don't have a financial incentive to tollerate it, have those countries changed their ways? Nah course not, they have no links with us, therefore don't really care what we say about them.

Now, what about similar countries where we have a financial incentive to tollerate what they're doing whilst also being sublte with political encouragement to change their ways.
Saudi Arabia: Terrible terrible place if you ask some members of this forum. Well I used to live there. They're participating in elections, there are plans to allow women to vote, there is now more freedom of speach, backed up by the King, the list goes on, all because we have financial links with them.
China: executed 10,000 people last year didn't it? More than the rest of the world's judicial systems put together I think. But wait, because of the West's links with China, things are slowly improving, there are more lawyers, meaning people are more likely to get proper legal representation, much better level of living, slowly moving in the right direction.
Turkey: Wow! Remember their history of human rights violations? And now they've nearly made it into the EU on the condition that they clean up their act. Just think, if that carrot wasn't waved in their face, they'd probably never change.

People forget that only a couple of hundred years ago in this country people's human rights were being violated, but only because of some of the events which took place during those centuries do we have the freedoms we enjoy today.
To presume that other countries should also be in the same position as us, even though those countries do not have similar events in their history shows a complete lack of understanding.

It reminds me of the international womans meeting back in the 90's where some women from an oppressive middle eastern country had managed to smuggle themselves out to attend in order to bring people's attention to their plight.
They wanted simple things, like access to medicines, the ability to look after their children.
A group of american lesbians got up and started berating them for not standing up for themselves and marching down the street demanding full rights.

[Chris]

Agreed, it was a top post

The problem I have is as I posted last night ... sounds facetious but it's a serious point. Whether we like it or not, China is now locked into the global economy. Just look at the major trouble that was caused a couple of months ago thanks to Mandelson's botched import restrictions. Our high street retailers rely on Chinese production for all manner of basic goods. A lot of our technology consumables come from China as well. A fair degree of our waste problem is solved for us by China, because it is so desperate for raw materials it is happy to take our rubbish off us to recycle it.

I don't like the regime, but we as a nation are legitmising it by trading with it. The Queen does not have any executive power. As our head of state she represents us, and in that sense she is only rolling out a literal red carpet for China because we have already rolled out a metaphorical one.

Surely it would be rank hypocrisy to continue trading on one hand, yet to deny the official welcome on the other? I don't like it, but all the Queen is really doing is lying in the bed we have all made for her.

[SlackDad]

Originally Posted by Chris T

Agreed, it was a top post

The problem I have is as I posted last night ... sounds facetious but it's a serious point. Whether we like it or not, China is now locked into the global economy. Just look at the major trouble that was caused a couple of months ago thanks to Mandelson's botched import restrictions. Our high street retailers rely on Chinese production for all manner of basic goods. A lot of our technology consumables come from China as well. A fair degree of our waste problem is solved for us by China, because it is so desperate for raw materials it is happy to take our rubbish off us to recycle it.

I don't like the regime, but we as a nation are legitmising it by trading with it. The Queen does not have any executive power. As our head of state she represents us, and in that sense she is only rolling out a literal red carpet for China because we have already rolled out a metaphorical one.

Surely it would be rank hypocrisy to continue trading on one hand, yet to deny the official welcome on the other? I don't like it, but all the Queen is really doing is lying in the bed we have all made for her.

Very interesting and salient points Chris and I agree with most of what you say. I wouldn't go as far as saying however that our high street retailers rely on Chinese production. What happens is that a garment is made in China for about £2.00-3.00 and sold in UK shops for £65.00. And this is for a reasonable priced product - I dread to think what the rate is for a pair of jeans for £4.00 or whatever in Tesco. The workers average annual income works out at about £600 per year. We have all got into the habit of paying too little for a product without fully evaluating the true cost. These are the kinds of issues that need addressing. We may not agree with the regime but are quite happy to turn a blind eye when it suits.

[Nidge]

Originally Posted by jrhnewark

They are slowly coming round, it would appear. But I can't - at this stage in time - thank monarchy for welcoming the *******s with open arms.

China will never come round, it's ruled by a communist government, all looks well and good on the TV but remember Saddam Hussain he used to let the TV cameras see what he wanted them to see, all the bad stuff was kept out of the way, China is exactly the same. We should boycott all the firms who outsource work to China, I took some knitting machines belonging to Caultaulds to Harwich on Monday, they were bound for Iran, it looks like Caultaulds are looking to the Iranians for more cheap labour just like they have done in China.
__________________

Originally Posted by SlackDad

Very interesting and salient points Chris and I agree with most of what you say. I wouldn't go as far as saying however that our high street retailers rely on Chinese production. What happens is that a garment is made in China for about £2.00-3.00 and sold in UK shops for £65.00. And this is for a reasonable priced product - I dread to think what the rate is for a pair of jeans for £4.00 or whatever in Tesco. The workers average annual income works out at about £600 per year. We have all got into the habit of paying too little for a product without fully evaluating the true cost. These are the kinds of issues that need addressing. We may not agree with the regime but are quite happy to turn a blind eye when it suits.

BHS source their work from Vietnam, a coat made in Vietnam costs around £3 thats to make it then ship it to the UK, the price on the ticket £120. Not a bad return is it?

I would welcome them with open arms.

Like it or not China is a future Superpower, probably the Superpower and if we want a slice of their economy we'd best be in there from the start.

Which is why the Monarchy is doing a stirling job.