French riots

[basa]

With the French Government now capitulating to the rioting immigrants, how long before we see similar events in the UK ?

Seems like a good idea. Riot, shoot at the police, burn a few cars and buildings and get as a result better housing and work opportunities on a plate.

Something somewhere seems askew to me. Surely if you are not happy in your home land and move somewhere else to live and work and ultimately earn citizenship, you should embrace that new countries culture and beliefs, work like a trojan and (dirty word coming up) integrate yourself.

I must be missing something. All I know is that I would never relocate to a country where I would be expected to adopt a culture and beliefs I didn't agree with.

[BBKing]

The French are revolting? Big deal.

With the French Government now capitulating to the rioting immigrants

...many of whom were born in France. These aren't the immigrants, these are the children of immigrants, and incidentally they've been heavily **** on most of their lives. Try harder next time and stop doing the BNP's job for them.

Originally Posted by BBKing

The French are revolting? Big deal.


...many of whom were born in France. These aren't the immigrants, these are the children of immigrants, and incidentally they've been heavily **** on most of their lives. Try harder next time and stop doing the BNP's job for them.

Nice one BB. I couldn't be arsed!

[Damien]

Originally Posted by basa

With the French Government now capitulating to the rioting immigrants, how long before we see similar events in the UK ?

Seems like a good idea. Riot, shoot at the police, burn a few cars and buildings and get as a result better housing and work opportunities on a plate.

Something somewhere seems askew to me. Surely if you are not happy in your home land and move somewhere else to live and work and ultimately earn citizenship, you should embrace that new countries culture and beliefs, work like a trojan and (dirty word coming up) integrate yourself.

I must be missing something. All I know is that I would never relocate to a country where I would be expected to adopt a culture and beliefs I didn't agree with.

This is kind of a unfair post. To suggest that this is an issue which we will see here and that this is about immigrants trying to get 'better' jobs and housing is unfair.

It is about housing and jobs but it is mostly about the way the french have treated their ethnic minorities and immigrants though the years. They are mostly ignored and are treated as 'less french' by the majority. France has had this problem for years but ignores it. People cannot be treated like this (immigrants are people, they do not lose rights because they are not born in the country they are in).

Theres 10% unemployment , even higher if you of a african or asian descent. The police treat them worse and there housing is poor. They are starting to riot, people do when they are treated like that.

It will only happen here if some people get there anti-immgrant ways

[punky]

Originally Posted by BBKing

...many of whom were born in France. These aren't the immigrants, these are the children of immigrants, and incidentally they've been heavily **** on most of their lives. Try harder next time and stop doing the BNP's job for them.

Immigrants or not, and whether they have been **** on or no, their behavior is unacceptable,

[BBKing]

their behavior is unacceptable

Quite (but the behaviour of the French politicians is equally reprehensible). However, it doesn't mean people should attempt to fit the current évènements into a preconceived racist view that 'immigrants' are the cause of all ills. That's just, well, unacceptable.

Anyway, France has a long tradition of civil violence against perceived tyranny, it's what the country was founded on and is, in a sense, the national myth. They have about the most bloodthirsty national anthem, too.

Frenchmen, as magnanimous warriors
Bear or hold back your blows
Spare these sad victims
That they regret taking up arms against us
But not these bloody despots
These accomplices of Bouillé
All these tigers who pitilessly
Ripped out their mothers' wombs

Nice, eh? Anyone know who Bouillé is and why they don't like him?

[punky]

Originally Posted by BBKing

Quite (but the behaviour of the French politicians is equally reprehensible).

Dude, you REALLY need a sense of proportion. Kinda like when you said Thatcher supports were almost as bad as paedophiles. Failing to provide enough jobs for people, including some first generation immigrants, I might add, isn't equally reprehensible as people who:

1) find other people's cars, who are quite innocent bystanders in all this, and torch their cars

2) throw molotov cocktails at police and burn down buildings

3) roam the streets in arms gangs shooting at people and seriously injuring them.

AS with some many other things, these riots have not occurred in a vaccuum and, whilst images of burning cars attract attention, years of State inertia towards the many social problems which these areas suffer do not. Those problems may not be as photogenic but they are more harmful than the burning of cars and shops. The State has, of course, to a large degree played a role in creating those social problems. And when it does kick off, having politicians labelling people as scum, ignoring the causes and focus on the symptoms with stupidly tough talking rhetoric is hardly going to calm the situation.

And this is an issue of class, of poverty and deprivation. These are not race riots.

[BBKing]

Kinda like when you said Thatcher supports were almost as bad as paedophiles.

Dude, when did I say that? For that matter, what the hell does that mean, like, in English, y'know, whatever?

*puzzled*

I meant Mr. Sarkozy, who's responsible for public safety, talking about cleaning 'scum' (although the word is stronger than that) off the streets with high powered Karcher hoses. Nice. Blaming people for being in a position you put them in is appalling politics, as is looking on indulgently when the farmers or air traffic controllers etc. stop the country moving or set fire to things but going way over the top when the dregs on the estates do it. Since you're so concerned about hypocrisy, there's a prime example. France is an inherently violent society as I've pointed out, so quite why anyone's surprised I'm not sure. Going back to La Marseillaise, you're teaching children in schools:

To arms, citizens!
Form your battalions!
March, march
Let impure blood
Water our furrows

[punky]

Originally Posted by andyl

And when it does kick off, having politicians labelling people as scum, ignoring the causes and focus on the symptoms with stupidly tough talking rhetoric is hardly going to calm the situation.

Not calm the situation, control it. If you give the impression that the government will listen and capitulate with people if they riot and burn cars, then pretty soon, you'll get everyone that has a greiveance, wether it is big, small, the government's fault or not, riotting.

And sorry, people burn down other people's cars, homes, and seriously injure police officers ARE scum. I don't give a s**t if they are poor or not. By sheer fluke noone has been killed yet. Sorry, I don't take the line that we should throw money at everyone in sympathy who is riotting because they are ****ed off at being poor.

Originally Posted by punky

Not calm the situation, control it......

You think they've controlled it?!! What are we on now - night 13?

[punky]

Originally Posted by BBKing

Dude, when did I say that?

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...3&postcount=20

Blaming people for being in a position you put them in is appalling politics,

These people aren't blamed for being poor, they are being blamed for setting fire to things and trying to kill people!

as is looking on indulgently when the farmers or air traffic controllers etc. stop the country moving or set fire to things but going way over the top when the dregs on the estates do it.

The two senarios aren't even closely related. One is a lawful, safe protest. The other involves thugs and scumbags who burn innocent people's property and try to kill others.
__________________

Originally Posted by andyl

you think they've controlled it?!! What are we on now - night 13?

Of course I don't, but this situation has to be brought under control. You don't do that by capitulating with rioters, or like I said, you'd have a different riot every week. That isn't law and order under control. Over-wealming show of force to crush any unlawful descent by rioters will bring the situation under control. Show that arson and attempted murder won't be tolerated nor accepted.

You don't bring social disorder under control by failing to acknowledge the root causes and making inflammatory comments (and nobody's sugesting 'capitulating'; but showing some understanding of context might not go amiss). Truly inept political intervention.

[basa]

OK I accept all you say .. the French are maybe racist and treat immigrants and their decendants differently.

But lets try and ask why is that and what are we trying to achieve by immigration or integration of foreigners in a foreign land ?

The world has hundreds of different races developed over millenia of living in different world regions with different conditions. The different cultures of these different races developed in reaction to those conditions.

We are all different, different races, different beliefs, different cultures, vive la difference. Throughout the living world different species remain different, even within species the different sub species remain apart, seagulls and crows do not integrate, gorillas and orangutans do not integrate, sharks and minnows do not integrate. In the same way I do not think Eskimos would integrate well with the Berber unless one or the other severely altered their ways of thinking and behaving .. digging in the sand is unlikely to produce much fish nor is wearing a Tuareg gandurah and cotton trousers be much use in Polar regions !! Extremes I know but the idea is plain.

What are we trying to do by integrating people from different regions and cultures into our regional culture ? Ultimately create a 'one world' race and culture ? Who will decide what that culture will be or will it be regionalised to take account of variations in conditions .. you know .. countries with races and cultures as we know them now ?

Why do we have to integrate ? Why do we have to relocate ? What is it about another country that appeals so much that people decide to move to it ? Climate, economy, social benefits (and by that I do NOT mean Government handouts .. I mean general conditions of say, housing, food, job opportunites, etc.).

Surely IMO if you do decide to relocate to another region of the world, it is implicit that you prefer the social and cultural conditions of that region and would therefore adopt those social and cultural policies. IMO attempting to import your own regional culture is going to fail since it will not suit your new regional conditions causing conflict.

Does anyone see what I am getting at ? We are all different, different races, let us remain different races in our different places. By all means change location, but accept that that does not just mean change location but also change beliefs to those of your new location.

[punky]

Originally Posted by andyl

You don't bring social disorder under control by failing to acknowledge the root causes and making inflammatory comments

Firstly, order must be restored before the situation can be resolved. That is job #1. Once order has been restored, the French government can look at seeing where they went wrong in the first place.

I'd like to point out though, countries are like businesses. They all have their good times and bad (economically speaking). Because there aren't enough jobs in a particular area isn't a good excuse to commit arson and attempted murder.

(and nobody's sugesting 'capitulating';

Surely if you give in to their demands, that is capitulation? You are surrendering to the unruly mob that you can't control. You can't let people like this dictate government policy.