It's good to mock religion!

[Graham]

Hey, don't blame me, it's not *MY* words...!

"Mockery is good for the faithful, says Carey - By Andrew Sparrow, Political Correspondent (Filed: 21/10/2005)

Muslims and members of other religions should get used to being mocked, the former Archbishop of Canterbury said yesterday.

Lord Carey of Clifton said he passionately believed it was good for members of a religion to have their faith criticised on certain occasions.

Speaking as a member of an all-party group of peers opposing the Racial and Religious Hatred Bill, Lord Carey said he wanted to live in a society where people were sensitive to the feelings of others.

"But in being sensitive, what we mustn't do is create a society in which certain stories are not told," Lord Carey told a news conference."

Full story: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...ixnewstop.html

[BBKing]

Carey is right for once, the bill is a pointless and silly abrogation of free speech, since religion is an active choice (unlike, say, gender or sexuality) and it's perfectly ok, and indeed essential, to be permitted to express critical opinions of someone else's choices.

[Angua]

I think the Lords will hopefully inject a measure of sanity into this bill. We all like a good joke and the law as it stood 'could' have made telling religious jokes a criminal offence.

I would worry more about those who feel their belief is threatened by someones off hand remark?

[kronas]

i think discussion of faiths or religions can only serve to be positive in the spirit of discussing them, its hard to believe that some people find it hard to accept that critcism is a part of life, where it affects everyone, if you have a particular stance on something and another person may or may not agree with it then there is likely criticism, you cant run away from it, if your beliefs are strong or you dont like what is being said then you speak your mind or make it clear your offended, i myself question anything and everything, i still cant see why religion is such a 'sure thing'

i was talking to someone two days ago and he was going down the religious route, so i followed him and questioned certain things, he said death should be prepared for and you must accept that if you are a muslim then its your duty to believe in god, ofcourse i questioned this thought, then he went on to say that when things go wrong in life its gods way of doing things, personally i believe alot of people use religion as a crutch in life, i know of a few people who are the same, they look for reasons as to why things happen and deem religion and god to be the concievable should i call it blame ?

just my view.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by Angua

I think the Lords will hopefully inject a measure of sanity into this bill. We all like a good joke and the law as it stood 'could' have made telling religious jokes a criminal offence.

A Christian, a Muslim and a Jew walk into a Court...!

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by BBKing

Carey is right for once, the bill is a pointless and silly abrogation of free speech, since religion is an active choice (unlike, say, gender or sexuality) and it's perfectly ok, and indeed essential, to be permitted to express critical opinions of someone else's choices.

But to 'mock' it? Having a joke is one thing, but to 'make fun' of it?

[patrickp]

That's the point about religion and religious belief - faith. The essence of any religious belief is that it can't be proved - if it can, it ceases to be religion and becomes science - or whatever slot that aspect fits into.

Therefore, any religion worth its salt must be capable of taking criticism - and being made fun of - without being shaken. A religion that has to be protected from these is worthless.

[Russ B]

I see nothing wrong with criticism but I'd never agree with 'making fun' of any sincere person's belief system. I can't think of many more disrespectful attitudes.

[patrickp]

Depends what you mean by 'making fun.' Many religious people poke fun at their own religion - a lot of Jewish people do this, in particular.

A lot of humour is essentially criticism, as well. However, if you're talking about negative humour: i.e. simply intended to denigrate, then I'd agree with you. But that isn't, by any means, all of 'making fun.'

I'd stand by my statement that "Therefore, any religion worth its salt must be capable of taking criticism - and being made fun of - without being shaken. A religion that has to be protected from these is worthless." Although I would see no value in what I referred to as 'negative humour,' I'd still say that a worthwhile religion should be able to rise above it.

[Russ B]

Again, I'd say there's nothing wrong with poking/making fun as long as it's without malicious intent.

People who openly criticise others' faith simply do not realise that their faith is not simply a point of view - it's a way of life. There is nothing wrong in criticising it per se - there are people on this site whose aparent lifestyles I'd be tempted to criticise - again, as long as it isn't done maliciously.

[patrickp]

Somebody pointed out earlier in this thread that religion is, essentially, a matter of choice, and thus is 'fair game' (my words). I'd agree with that: I'd say that anything based on choice must be robust in that way. If it's not based on choice - race, sexuality, etc - then people have a right to expect not to be penalised for this.

I have plenty of beliefs of my own (not religious ones - don't have them - or, rather, I'm a devout atheist) that I _expect_ people to take issue with. Well, Ok, I expect people to take issue with my atheism, too. I don't have those beliefs for their benefit, I have them for mine and, when it comes down to it, I don't give a monkey's what they think. They can criticise or make fun all they want, just so long as they accept that I can, too.

[cookie_365]

Originally Posted by Russ D

I see nothing wrong with criticism but I'd never agree with 'making fun' of any sincere person's belief system. I can't think of many more disrespectful attitudes.

But not agreeing with it shouldn't be the same as criminalising it

I don't (for example) agree with your belief in the existence of a god, but I don't think you should be prevented from expressing your view.

And I wish film makers would choose not to include violence in their films, but I don't want them banned if they do.

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by patrickp

Somebody pointed out earlier in this thread that religion is, essentially, a matter of choice, and thus is 'fair game' (my words).

We've had discussions on here in the past where it was 'agreed' by many people (myself definately not included) that parents force it on their children. If that is true then I wouldn't call it a matter of choice.

Originally Posted by patrickp

I have plenty of beliefs of my own (not religious ones - don't have them - or, rather, I'm a devout atheist) that I _expect_ people to take issue with. Well, Ok, I expect people to take issue with my atheism, too. I don't have those beliefs for their benefit, I have them for mine and, when it comes down to it, I don't give a monkey's what they think. They can criticise or make fun all they want, just so long as they accept that I can, too.

That must be where you and I differ then: I would consider it almost the height of bad manners to maliciously mock/criticise someone's view of the world. From Dictionary.com....

mock ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mk)
v. mocked, mock·ing, mocks
v. tr.
To treat with ridicule or contempt; deride.

To mimic, as in sport or derision. See Synonyms at ridicule.
To imitate; counterfeit.
To frustrate the hopes of; disappoint.

v. intr.
To express scorn or ridicule; jeer: They mocked at the idea.

n.

The act of mocking.
Mockery; derision: said it merely in mock.
An object of scorn or derision.
An imitation or a counterfeit.

So you'd deride my faith? Scorn it? Ridicule it? Treat it with contempt? What have I ever done to you?

Originally Posted by cookie_365

But not agreeing with it shouldn't be the same as criminalising it

Agreed.

[patrickp]

I didn't say maliciously. You did, Russ. I would agree that it's not good manners to mock someone's view of the world, but not that it's not good manners to criticise it - as I said before, a belief should be robust enough to take criticism. And, again, good manners are nice, but should not be forced on people who don't wish to be well mannered.

If you would not say it's true that some people have religion forced on them by their parents then you can't reasonably use that as an argument

Equally, when did I ever "deride my faith? Scorn it? Ridicule it? Treat it with contempt?"

That's really what it's down to. It's not necessarily that I'm going to make fun of someone's religion, it's that they should be able to handle it if I do, and that I should have the right to do so - and they should equally have the right to make fun of my beliefs - or do you not agree with that?

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by patrickp

I didn't say maliciously. You did, Russ.

I know - because you didn't seem to see my point

Originally Posted by patrickp

I would agree that it's not good manners to mock someone's view of the world, but not that it's not good manners to criticise it - as I said before, a belief should be robust enough to take criticism.

With the first part of what you said there - I would agree with you that the Archbishop is therefore wrong is saying "it's good to mock religion"

Originally Posted by patrickp

If you would not say it's true that some people have religion forced on them by their parents then you can't reasonably use that as an argument

I'm not using it as my own argument - I'm using it against the people who are convinced that all parents with biblical faith do this - they know who they are

Originally Posted by patrickp

Equally, when did I ever "deride my faith? Scorn it? Ridicule it? Treat it with contempt?"

Figure of speech to reinforce my point

Originally Posted by patrickp

That's really what it's down to. It's not necessarily that I'm going to make fun of someone's religion, it's that they should be able to handle it if I do, and that I should have the right to do so - and they should equally have the right to make fun of my beliefs - or do you not agree with that?

Are you saying that you think that although making malicious (again, my word) fun of someone's faith is bad form, they should at least have the right to do it? That sound dangerously close to Stan/Loretta in Life of Brian* wanting the 'right to have babies' even though he's male!



*great film, in no way was that mocking anything other than trade union-style organisations.