Is multiculturism an impossibility?

[Salu]

http://212.58.226.30/1/hi/uk_politics/4163484.stm

Norman Tebbit has made some comments that I'm sure will be contentious....but there are some things that he says that I have to say, that I agree with....

Islam is so unreformed there have been no real advances in art, literature, science or technology in the Muslim world in 500 years, Lord Tebbit says.

I'm not sure how this could be substantiated though......is it true? If it isn't can anyone name any Muslims that have advanced art, literature, science or technology??

Multiculturalism is in danger of undermining British society, the former Conservative Party chairman also tells the e-politix website. Lord Tebbit said multicultural society was "an impossibility" because if there were two cultures there would also be two societies.

"A society is defined by its culture. It is not defined by its race, it is not a matter of skin colour or ethnicity, it is a matter of culture.

"If you have two societies in the same place then you are going to have problems, like the kind we saw on 7 July, sooner or later," he said.

I think he is probably right. There seem to be immigrants that speak English, dress in British fashion etc etc and those that seem to refuse to integrate. Will not learn English etc etc....

In the 1980s he questioned the loyalty of immigrants who backed cricket teams from their countries of origin.

Now he says if he had been heeded it might have stopped the London bombings.

"I do think had my comments been acted on those attacks would have been less likely," Lord Tebbit told the website.

"What I was saying about the so-called 'cricket test' is that it was a test of whether a community has integrated. "If a community was looking back at where it had come from instead of looking forward with the people to whom they had come to, then there is going to be a problem sooner or later."

This is also true. I'm not sure it would have stopped the London bombings but certainly measuring one's allegiance to a different country than your own does seem to make sense....


Very brave of him to say in this "mustn't offend anyone" society.....

[me283]

I would say that in this country it is an impossibility. We have to face the fact that some races, religions, or just individuals are less keen to integrate. Compound that with the fact that this is a very small island which is becoming more and more crowded, and you can see that there are problems looming on the horizon.

It's not purely racial, religious, or any other category of problem alone. IMO opinion it's one of tolerance, and that is sadly lacking to some level in all factions of society.

One thing I disagree with slightly is the "cricket test" though. Yes it may point to allegiance, but I think most people have some kind of pride in their heritage; there's nothing wrong with that, until it becomes contentious and leads to conflict.

I think in the mid to long-term there will be major problems in this country. Tolerance is the key: there is so much tolerance in some directions, yet very little (if any) in other directions. It just can't continue like that.

[punky]

Originally Posted by Salu

I'm not sure how this could be substantiated though......is it true? If it isn't can anyone name any Muslims that have advanced art, literature, science or technology??

An (Iranian) muslim won a Nobel prize for literature recently, and if you read the Guardian they say Iranian film-making is one of the best, although I think that's stretching it. There are exceptions to every rule.

I will get called a racist for saying this, and people should know me well enough by now to know that I am not, so i'll say it. What he said rings true with me. Look at Muslim countries around the world, they are like how western countries were in the middle ages. Hacking off people's handss for petty theft? Burning people alive? Stoning adulterers?

With regards to multiculturalism, I don't think there is any reason it can't happen, but all communties have to want it. I don't think they do (on the white or non-white side)

[Salu]

Originally Posted by punky

An (Iranian) muslim won a Nobel prize for literature recently, and if you read the Guardian they say Iranian film-making is one of the best, although I think that's stretching it. There are exceptions to every rule.

OK but a drop in the ocean perhaps...This is not a "have a go a Muslims for not advancing" btw, just an observation....

Originally Posted by punky

With regards to multiculturalism, I don't think there is any reason it can't happen, but all communties have to want it. I don't think they do (on the white or non-white side)

I think that there are plenty of reasons why this doesn't happen. It's probably more of a pipe dream than a reality though....I think Lord Tebbit sums it up well here...

Multiculturalism is in danger of undermining British society, the former Conservative Party chairman also tells the e-politix website. Lord Tebbit said multicultural society was "an impossibility" because if there were two cultures there would also be two societies.

"A society is defined by its culture. It is not defined by its race, it is not a matter of skin colour or ethnicity, it is a matter of culture.

"If you have two societies in the same place then you are going to have problems, like the kind we saw on 7 July, sooner or later," he said.

The issue is with having more than one culture. Without the convergence of both cultures there will be two socieites.....This is why we are deluding ourselves that we are multicultural. The division is alive and well and thriving....

Do we as native Britains want to absorb hand amputations, wife beating and other alien (to us) cultural practices into our culture? If we don't then are we really expecting a true integration of the various cultures? Or are we expecting them to drop their cultural traditions.

I'm not just directing this towards Musliims. The same would apply to Jewish, Hindu, outer mombasa and other cultures...

[Angua]

Father in Law worked in Lybia a few years ago where Steelworks became U/S because of Ramadam.

The Arab world produced mathamatics and medicine but have stagnated since the 12th century.
Where leaders have tried to bring these nations into the 20th century (let alone the 21st century) there has been a complete backlash (Shah of Iran).
The church controlled this country prior to Henry VIII and as long as a few people have a disproportionate control over how other people think as with many muslims today, integration will remain a long way off.

Individual muslims are happy to integrate and have much to contribute to this country. IMHO it is the Imams who need to keep control who are holding their congregations back from fully joining this country.

[me283]

I would like to say as early as possible in this thread that multi-culturalism involves more than just Muslims. They seem to be at the forefront of any discussion on this subject, and maybe understandably so in the current climate, but this country's problems in the multicultural arena do not start or end with Muslims.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by me283

I would like to say as early as possible in this thread that multi-culturalism involves more than just Muslims. They seem to be at the forefront of any discussion on this subject, and maybe understandably so in the current climate, but this country's problems in the multicultural arena do not start or end with Muslims.

Agree, all the Hindus, Buddists, Shinto, Christian etc you would be hard pressed to know who follows any one of those faiths (except the obvious monks/nuns outfits), hence the singling out of Muslims. Sikhs seem to fit in very well, as the only other obvious group.

[Chris W]

Originally Posted by Angua

Agree, all the Hindus, Buddists, Shinto, Christian etc you would be hard pressed to know who follows any one of those faiths (except the obvious monks/nuns outfits), hence the singling out of Muslims. Sikhs seem to fit in very well, as the only other obvious group.

You forgot Jews Where i live they are quite distinctive (lots of Hassids).

These are religions, not 'cultures'. Any room for us atheists?

In answer to the question, no.

That's my one and only contribution to this thread people.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by Salu

http://212.58.226.30/1/hi/uk_politics/4163484.stm

Norman Tebbit has made some comments that I'm sure will be contentious....but there are some things that he says that I have to say, that I agree with....

Wasn't this what Kilroy said about the Arabs...?!

I'm not sure how this could be substantiated though......is it true? If it isn't can anyone name any Muslims that have advanced art, literature, science or technology??

"Muslim" is such a sweeping, all encompassing expression that this is an impossible question to answer.

I'm sure there are artists, writers, scientists and engineers who follow the ways of Islam, but they don't have labels saying "I am a Muslim".

You might as well ask the same question about Christians, but remember that just because someone is White and Western doesn't mean they follow Christianity.

Multiculturalism is in danger of undermining British society, the former Conservative Party chairman also tells the e-politix website. Lord Tebbit said multicultural society was "an impossibility" because if there were two cultures there would also be two societies.

"A society is defined by its culture. It is not defined by its race, it is not a matter of skin colour or ethnicity, it is a matter of culture.

"If you have two societies in the same place then you are going to have problems, like the kind we saw on 7 July, sooner or later," he said.

This one has been done already. It got very acrimonious and I'm not going to do it again.

In the 1980s he questioned the loyalty of immigrants who backed cricket teams from their countries of origin.

Now he says if he had been heeded it might have stopped the London bombings.

This is utter nonsense and to claim that this is a "measure of integration" is like saying someone who has moved from Manchester to Liverpool should prove their "alliegence" by supporting Liverpool instead of Man Utd.

It isn't very likely to happen!

Very brave of him to say in this "mustn't offend anyone" society.....

Very stupid of him to trot out this sort of tired old rhetoric again.
__________________

Originally Posted by Salu

Do we as native Britains want to absorb hand amputations, wife beating and other alien (to us) cultural practices into our culture? If we don't then are we really expecting a true integration of the various cultures? Or are we expecting them to drop their cultural traditions.

Surprisingly enough, there *are* Muslims who *aren't* fanatical fundamentalists and who *don't* support such practices and who most certainly wouldn't advocate their introduction into *any* culture.

[Jules]

While ever we as a country allow people to live here that preach hated to the British (and Welsh ) and to openly support bombings etc, no I do not think it is possible. They incite hatred for there own kind with there fanatical ramblings

[Salu]

Originally Posted by Graham

I'm sure there are artists, writers, scientists and engineers who follow the ways of Islam, but they don't have labels saying "I am a Muslim".

You may be sure but what about proof?

Originally Posted by Graham

You might as well ask the same question about Christians, but remember that just because someone is White and Western doesn't mean they follow Christianity.

As has been said before this is predominately about culture and not religion. It just so happens that the "unreformed" culture the Tebbit refers to, happens to be Muslim.

Originally Posted by Graham

This one has been done already. It got very acrimonious and I'm not going to do it again.

I'm pleased to hear that you are not going to be acrimonious.

Originally Posted by Graham

This is utter nonsense and to claim that this is a "measure of integration" is like saying someone who has moved from Manchester to Liverpool should prove their "alliegence" by supporting Liverpool instead of Man Utd.
It isn't very likely to happen!

Not a very good example.... I think the culture is much the same between Liverpool and Manchester.

Originally Posted by Graham

Very stupid of him to trot out this sort of tired old rhetoric again.

Unlike "Modern new Liberalism" eh?

Originally Posted by Graham

Surprisingly enough, there *are* Muslims who *aren't* fanatical fundamentalists and who *don't* support such practices and who most certainly wouldn't advocate their introduction into *any* culture.

I don't think he is referring to fundamentalists but he is talking about the lack of reformation in the Muslim culture. He is suggesting that this overt opposite to the Western culture is hampering the coming together of the two cultures.....if that is possible...

[Graham]

Originally Posted by Salu

You may be sure but what about proof?

How can that be proven unless someone says "I am a Muslim and a scientist/ whatever"?

As has been said before this is predominately about culture and not religion. It just so happens that the "unreformed" culture the Tebbit refers to, happens to be Muslim.

Personally I think the sort of "unreformed" comments that Tebbit makes are more of a problem!

Not a very good example.... I think the culture is much the same between Liverpool and Manchester.

Not having been to either place I will refrain from commenting, but try a Celtic supporter moving from Glasgow to the Stockbroker Belt or any other such examples. The point remains the same.

Unlike "Modern new Liberalism" eh?

And your point is what, exactly?

I don't think he is referring to fundamentalists but he is talking about the lack of reformation in the Muslim culture.

What is this "lack of reformation"? Yes, there are some Muslim cultures which follow a strict interpretation of Islam and Sharia law, but you can't tar the entirity of Islam with one brush.

He is suggesting that this overt opposite to the Western culture is hampering the coming together of the two cultures.....if that is possible...

And, of course, there's no overt *Western* opposition to Islam that is hampering the coming together of two cultures...?!

"This is our country, our culture, our rules, our way of life, we don't want *yours* influencing us!"

And before anyone tries the "do you want hand amputations" etc argument again, I'm not talking about that sort of extremism. For two peoples/ cultures/ whatever to come together they should meet in the middle all the movement can't be only from one side.

[Salu]

Originally Posted by Graham

How can that be proven unless someone says "I am a Muslim and a scientist/ whatever"?

Come on Graham, it's just semantics. Forget the term "Muslim" then and tell me who from Islamic countries such as Saudia Arabia, Iraq, Iram etc etc have advanced art, literature, science or technology in the the past 500 years then.

Originally Posted by Graham

Personally I think the sort of "unreformed" comments that Tebbit makes are more of a problem!

More of a problem than what? Islamic fundamentalists? It's just his opinion and he is entitled to express it. He is however not blowing people up by saying it..

Originally Posted by Graham

Not having been to either place I will refrain from commenting, but try a Celtic supporter moving from Glasgow to the Stockbroker Belt or any other such examples. The point remains the same.

It's unlike you to refrain from commenting....

However, by saying this are you not backing up Tebbit's point that cultural integration is near to impossible when the cultures are poles apart?

Originally Posted by Graham

And your point is what, exactly?

I think you are wrong to dismiss someone's point of view as tired old rhetoric. You trot out the same old Liberalism rhetoric against everyone else, matey!

Originally Posted by Graham

What is this "lack of reformation"? Yes, there are some Muslim cultures which follow a strict interpretation of Islam and Sharia law, but you can't tar the entirity of Islam with one brush.

So......tell me someone who has advanced art, literature, science or technology in the the past 500 ..............

Originally Posted by Graham

And, of course, there's no overt *Western* opposition to Islam that is hampering the coming together of two cultures...?!

Well I think there is Western opposition, like there is "Muslim" opposition. The point being that the cultures are so different that cultural integration is near to impossible without compromising or at least diluting each of them.

Originally Posted by Graham

"This is our country, our culture, our rules, our way of life, we don't want *yours* influencing us!"

It would be interesting to see the opposition if a load of "Christians/British/Westerners/Americans" (what ever you want to call them) went to a Muslim state and tried to make it Western/Christian/British/US (now as opposed to our Empirical past). I think it is only because of our Western reformation that we are able to embrace (not as much as we should) other cultures now and this has lead to Britain Multiculturality. I don't think you will find an Islamic country as multicultural as the UK is. Why's that?


....I'm not getting any damn work done....

[Chris T]

Originally Posted by Graham

And before anyone tries the "do you want hand amputations" etc argument again, I'm not talking about that sort of extremism. For two peoples/ cultures/ whatever to come together they should meet in the middle all the movement can't be only from one side.

To demand that two cultures meet in the middle is to imply that both cutures are of equal value, with an equal number of positive and negative attributes, allowing for a neat, 50/50 settlement.

Are all cultures of equal value?

TBH, I find it a lot harder to discount hand amputations as extremism as you seem to be able to. Conveniently forgetting great chunks of the law that drives major coutries like Saudi Arabia might help balance your equation, but it doesn't actually achieve anything on the ground.