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Drought summit as rivers in England dry up
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Old 21-02-2012, 20:17   #31
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Re: Drought summit as rivers in England dry up

Me too. We used to play footy outside in the cul-de-sac and it was so hot the tarmac/asphalt pavement and road surfaces started to melt. We also had a beautiful Virginia creeper which had covered the front/side of the house for 30 odd years but that died in 1976.

My personal view is that we should plan, build and spend for the future when it comes to water, energy, flood defences etc. but it didn't happen when Brown was spending money like it was going out of fashion and I can't see it happening now the finances are really stretched.
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Old 21-02-2012, 20:33   #32
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Re: Drought summit as rivers in England dry up

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Obviously water that has already been processed at someone else's expense should be paid for, but I'm not sure that was the idea. There would be little point pumping purified water over great distances. You would pump 'raw' water between reservoirs and purify it before putting it into the distribution network in the town where it is to be consumed.

I don't buy the idea that England only thinks of the home nations whenever it 'wants something'. I listened to the Vine show as well and I heard the Plaido (Elfyn Llwyd, was it? I was under the kitchen floor so didn't catch all of it) offering up the same small-minded parochial guff we get on our own local telly and radio from the SNP. We are a United Kingdom. We distribute our resources when and where required. Wales is a net beneficiary of taxes collected in the UK, and the south east of England is a net contributor. Nobody has yet suggested that Wales should get less because it contributes less. It is part of the UK. It deserves the same as everyone else. And if parts of this island have more water than is needed, the people who happen to live where the water is have absolutely no right whatsoever to demand payment for that resource, except as would be part of the usual planning and development process.
This is why I didn't say I agreed with England paying for the water. I understand and respect why Llwyd thought we should be paid for it as it's his job to promote our interests. But I certainly think the processing costs etc should be covered by England. If Welsh Water made no profit from the venture then I say that's fair. There certainly is a tangible amount of England only being interested in its own affairs until it wants something from us in this but that would be taking this too OT.

One thing is for sure, a case like Capel Celyn is unlikely to ever happen in reverse.
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Old 21-02-2012, 20:44   #33
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Re: Drought summit as rivers in England dry up

That wouldn't be England paying Wales for something though. It would be the consumers of the water paying whichever company built and operated the reservoir and the pipeline. Llwyd seems mightily un-keen for Welsh Water to have anything to do with such a project, so it would probably be a private company, probably headquartered in England.

The only sense in which England could pay Wales would be if the Assembly were to be able to charge some sort of tax or levy for transferring water across the national border in a way that is not charged for transferring water across a local authority border, say between Monmouth and Newport, or if it were to impose a levy on any non-Welsh company that attempted to develop a reservoir in Wales. Both approaches would be legally dubious in the extreme.
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Old 21-02-2012, 20:46   #34
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Re: Drought summit as rivers in England dry up

.....and again, which is why I have not said I agree with England (or whoever) paying for it
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Old 21-02-2012, 20:46   #35
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Re: Drought summit as rivers in England dry up

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Originally Posted by Russ View Post
One thing is for sure, a case like Capel Celyn is unlikely to ever happen in reverse.
Plenty of villages have been lost to reservoirs in England. Not sure if any of them have been used to supply Wales though...
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Old 21-02-2012, 20:49   #36
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Re: Drought summit as rivers in England dry up

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Plenty of villages have been lost to reservoirs in England. Not sure if any of them have been used to supply Wales though...
None have - and my point is it's extremely unlikely to ever happen.
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Old 21-02-2012, 20:54   #37
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Re: Drought summit as rivers in England dry up

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.....and again, which is why I have not said I agree with England (or whoever) paying for it
Actually you did - you said "England" should pay the processing costs. And I pointed out that the WA administration could not find any lawful way of imposing any charge - even an at-cost charge - on the basis that the water was crossing a national border within the UK.

"England" could not be made to pay anything to Wales. The only payments that would need to be made would be between the company operating the reservoir and the consumers drinking the water. Whether the company or the consumers were English or Welsh would be entirely irrelevant.

The whole reason the debate was framed in these terms on the radio this lunchtime was of course because the Plaidos have an interest in creating an impression of difference between England and Wales. But outside of nationalist fantasy politics there is simply no legal framework that would allow any such arrangement to develop.

---------- Post added at 20:54 ---------- Previous post was at 20:52 ----------

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None have - and my point is it's extremely unlikely to ever happen.
The point is entirely moot. The rainfall and the topography to capture and store it is located in Wales, and the large population centres are located in England.
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Old 21-02-2012, 21:05   #38
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Re: Drought summit as rivers in England dry up

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Actually you did - you said "England" should pay the processing costs. And I pointed out that the WA administration could not find any lawful way of imposing any charge - even an at-cost charge - on the basis that the water was crossing a national border within the UK.

"England" could not be made to pay anything to Wales. The only payments that would need to be made would be between the company operating the reservoir and the consumers drinking the water. Whether the company or the consumers were English or Welsh would be entirely irrelevant.
I think you're missing the point - using an extreme example, let's say WW didn't refuse the water (not that they could of course) but did not offer any help with the transportation. They did not deny access to the water but did not participate in getting the water to England. Would it not then be the English water authorities receiving the water who would be paying for the transportation?

I stress again that's an extreme but the point I'm making is a company which does not serve England (or any other location) should not have to pay for the processing and transportation. I'm not saying they should profit from it, just that their costs should be met. I'd expect the same in return if it was the other way around.

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
The whole reason the debate was framed in these terms on the radio this lunchtime was of course because the Plaidos have an interest in creating an impression of difference between England and Wales. But outside of nationalist fantasy politics there is simply no legal framework that would allow any such arrangement to develop.
That's Plaid Cymru for you, although the discussion was set up by the England-based Radio 2

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The point is entirely moot. The rainfall and the topography to capture and store it is located in parts of Wales, and the large population centres are located in England.
Adjusted that for you

Not all Wales has oversupplies of water - some of the country is also prone to drought. But I can't ever see any villages in England flooded to dealt with it.
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Old 21-02-2012, 21:23   #39
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Re: Drought summit as rivers in England dry up

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Originally Posted by Russ View Post
I think you're missing the point - using an extreme example, let's say WW didn't refuse the water (not that they could of course) but did not offer any help with the transportation. They did not deny access to the water but did not participate in getting the water to England. Would it not then be the English water authorities receiving the water who would be paying for the transportation?
No, it would be private companies, some (but not all) of which are in English ownership. Water and sewage services were privatised in England and Wales a long time ago and in England they remain in the hands of PLCs.

The point I'm making is, drawing 'English' and 'Welsh' into the debate in any sense whatsoever is just not relevant. For the purposes of supplying water, there is no border. There are simply different companies serving different areas. Welsh Water serves most of Wales and also some of England (around Gloucester and Hereford for example). An English company, Severn-Trent, serves areas of Wales in the Severn catchment.

If water is exchanged between any two companies, then of course that is a commercial operation and the buyer will pay the seller. That goes without saying. But for Plaid Cymru to call for England to pay Wales, simply because the water is crossing the border, is to propose an entirely different layer of costs onto the situation.

Quote:
I stress again that's an extreme but the point I'm making is a company which does not serve England (or any other location) should not have to pay for the processing and transportation. I'm not saying they should profit from it, just that their costs should be met. I'd expect the same in return if it was the other way around.
Nobody is asking for charity. One company sells, another buys and that's the end of it. The border between England and Wales is not relevant.

Quote:
That's Plaid Cymru for you, although the discussion was set up by the England-based Radio 2
I'm not sure who it was that chose to frame the question that way on R2 this lunchtime, but listening to Elfyn Llwyd it was quite apparent he agreed with the proposition. Either he made it, or he wishes he had.

Quote:
Not all Wales has oversupplies of water - some of the country is also prone to drought. But I can't ever see any villages in England flooded to dealt with it.
Probably because wherever in Wales has a drought, there is a more easily exploited source of water somewhere else in Wales that would be first in line for a reservoir. I don't believe there's anywhere within practical distance in England that might qualify for a scheme on the scale of Capel Celyn.

And on the subject of Capel Celyn, let's put to bed the tawdry nationalist myth that the reservoir was built there because it was in Wales and its inhabitants were therefore somehow less important.

It was built where it was because it was in the right place in relation to the city that needed the water and because official attitudes towards projects of this sort were rather different back then. Things have changed a lot for the better and it's highly unlikely such a thing would be proposed in the here and now, regardless of whether or not the water was proposed to be piped over the border.
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Old 21-02-2012, 22:24   #40
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Re: Drought summit as rivers in England dry up

I bet my neighbours will still water their gardens at night
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Old 22-02-2012, 09:26   #41
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Re: Drought summit as rivers in England dry up

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I bet my neighbours will still water their gardens at night
Going to be a fag once the stand pipes go up.

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Old 22-02-2012, 10:14   #42
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Re: Drought summit as rivers in England dry up

With scrap metal prices the way they're going, they'll be gone in a flash lol
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