Re-Nationalize the UK Railways

Alan Fry · 09-02-2012, 13:02

In light over the contoversy over fare rises and the Network Rail bonuse, plus the fact the government spends more money on the railways and basicly controls the railways more than it over did over the BR days, I fell that the railways should be Renationlized, becuase lots of money is wated on the profits and dividedss of the TOC's (nearly all that money comes from the taxpayer)

But What do you think?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16380479

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16901587

**Chris** · 09-02-2012, 14:11

The infrastructure has already been renationalised, regardless of any spin to the contrary.

The privatisation was rushed, botched and resulted in too much fragmentation and short-termism. Slowly, that has been changing with the DFT taking a hand in strategic procurement decisions for new rolling stock and longer franchises allowing the TOCs more security to invest in their services.

I can't see what advantage there would be in bringing the services themselves back under State control. For all its faults, privatisation led directly to a renaissance in railway usage by the public. Passenger numbers are now vastly greater than they were under BR, which seemed to be trying to mirror the Foreign Office's colonial policy (I.e. management of a graceful decline). Routes that long ago fell to the Beeching axe have re-opened; still others are being considered for re-opening; facilities aboard trains and the trains themselves have vastly improved.

Full renationalisation would be a vastly complex and expensive process. All the rolling stock would have to be bought off the ROSCOs (the companies that currently own and lease them to the train operating companies) and the route franchises themselves would have to be bought back from the TOCs, or else endure a decade or more of transitions as those franchises limp to an end with the TOCs basically doing nothing to excel at them because they would know there was no way to win a new franchise at the end of it.

Alan Fry · 09-02-2012, 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

The infrastructure has already been renationalised, regardless of any spin to the contrary.

The privatisation was rushed, botched and resulted in too much fragmentation and short-termism. Slowly, that has been changing with the DFT taking a hand in strategic procurement decisions for new rolling stock and longer franchises allowing the TOCs more security to invest in their services.

I can't see what advantage there would be in bringing the services themselves back under State control. For all its faults, privatisation led directly to a renaissance in railway usage by the public. Passenger numbers are now vastly greater than they were under BR, which seemed to be trying to mirror the Foreign Office's colonial policy (I.e. management of a graceful decline). Routes that long ago fell to the Beeching axe have re-opened; still others are being considered for re-opening; facilities aboard trains and the trains themselves have vastly improved.

Full renationalisation would be a vastly complex and expensive process. All the rolling stock would have to be bought off the ROSCOs (the companies that currently own and lease them to the train operating companies) and the route franchises themselves would have to be bought back from the TOCs, or else endure a decade or more of transitions as those franchises limp to an end with the TOCs basically doing nothing to excel at them because they would know there was no way to win a new franchise at the end of it.

What I am saying is that a lot of taxpayer’s money is wasted on profits and dividends of the TOC’s! When I mean “Re-Nationalize the UK Railways” I mean the TOC’s, FOC’s and ROSCO’s

Franchises can be ended immediately (take NXEA for example) and if all the rail, companies, you would save money on management cost and the railways can be more easily co-ordinated

A lot more money should be invested on the railways than now to pay for new rolling stock and reopening line and upgrades, to compensate for the damage on the UK rail network caused by government, the “big 4”, BTC, BR and TOC’s

More Specifically the following companies should be nationalized (in the case of Network Rail, formerly nationalized):

ANGEL TRAINS (ROSCO)

ARRIVA TRAINS WALES (TOC)

C2C (TOC)

CHILTERN RAILWAYS (TOC)

DIESEL TRAINS (ROSCO)

CROSSCOUNTRY (TOC)

EAST COAST (TOC)

EVERSHOLT RAIL (ROSCO)

GB RAILFREIGHT (FOC)

DB SCHENKER RAIL (UK) (FOC)

DIRECT RAIL SERVICES (FOC)

GREATER ANGLIA (TOC)

EAST MIDLANDS TRAINS (TOC)

EUROSTAR (TOC)

FIRST CAPITAL CONNECT (TOC)

FIRST GREAT WESTERN (TOC)

FIRST HULL TRAINS (TOC)

FIRST SCOTRAIL (TOC)

FIRST TRANSPENNINE EXPRESS (TOC)

FREIGHTLINER (FOC)

GRAND CENTRAL RAILWAY (TOC)

HEATHROW CONNECT (TOC)

HEATHROW EXPRESS (TOC)

LONDON & CONTINENTAL RAILWAYS (INFRASTRUCTURE OPERATOR)

LONDON MIDLAND (TOC)

LONDON OVERGROUND (TOC)

LLOYDS TSB GENERAL LEASING (ROSCO)

MERSEYRAIL (TOC)

NETWORK RAIL (INFRASTRUCTURE OPERATOR)

NORTHERN RAIL (TOC)

PORTERBROOK (ROSCO)

QW RAIL LEASING (ROSCO)

SOUTHEASTERN (TOC)

SOUTHERN (TOC)

SOUTH WEST TRAINS (TOC)

VIRGIN TRAINS (TOC)

They then should be merged to form a sort of “British Railways plc” a state owned Network Rail style company, but 100% owned by the state

The system we have had lead to some improvements, but a waste of money and a underinvested and sub-standard railway

AndyCambs · 09-02-2012, 14:33

From my perspective, one thing that did not help was the awarding of the East Coast Mainline route from Kings Cross. Formerly run by GNER who had the passengers' best interests at heart (I have seen the board members and senior managers on the platforms at Kings Cross when there have been delays). It was awarded to National Express who gave neither the highest bid, nor was judged the best operator. National Express systematically ran the line down, and then dropped the franchise because they couldn't afford it.

The idea was good - giving a choice of carriers and hopefully prices on routes, but the practice of awarding the franchises was flawed - specially by Lord Adonis, and most rail companies operate under some sort of agreement with fares now.

Irrespective of whether it had been privatised or nationalised, I think we would still have been given the same story time after time - that fares needed to go up for future investment, but the longer trains, longer platforms and bottle necks on the line just don't seem to get fixed.

Even after 12 years of commuting to London, my journey time has actually increased, not improved!

Alan Fry · 09-02-2012, 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyCambs

From my perspective, one thing that did not help was the awarding of the East Coast Mainline route from Kings Cross. Formerly run by GNER who had the passengers' best interests at heart (I have seen the board members and senior managers on the platforms at Kings Cross when there have been delays). It was awarded to National Express who gave neither the highest bid, nor was judged the best operator. National Express systematically ran the line down, and then dropped the franchise because they couldn't afford it.

The idea was good - giving a choice of carriers and hopefully prices on routes, but the practice of awarding the franchises was flawed - specially by Lord Adonis, and most rail companies operate under some sort of agreement with fares now.

Irrespective of whether it had been privatised or nationalised, I think we would still have been given the same story time after time - that fares needed to go up for future investment, but the longer trains, longer platforms and bottle necks on the line just don't seem to get fixed.

Even after 12 years of commuting to London, my journey time has actually increased, not improved!

GNER was removed of the franchise because their owner went bust, the whole system is a failure and need top end now and Major invented it so to cut taxpayer investment and increase competition. What we got was a poorly co-ordinated railway that is not working!

Thatcher herself thought BR privatization was not a good idea and tried to instead improve the way BR was run!

The Tories should undo Major's mistake!

---------- Post added at 14:41 ---------- Previous post was at 14:37 ----------

Rail Privatisation has also ruined the UK Rolling Stock Industry, now we have only one in Derby run by Bombardier (based in Canada)

---------- Post added at 14:51 ---------- Previous post was at 14:41 ----------

Read this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ort-railtravel

**Rob** · 09-02-2012, 14:51

The big flaw in the privatisation policy was a lack of competition. Only with competition will there be real improvement in services, or reduced costs. There might be some potential for competition with the freight carriers, but certainly for the infrastructure, and for most passenger services, there is only one choice of provider. Thus the whole industgry relies on the layers of regulation to keep itself in check.

But we are probably stuck with the current system, unless someone is going to find yet more non existent funding to buy out all the current incumbents to start with something else. Such a buy out would be unpalateable.

Alan Fry · 09-02-2012, 14:55

70% back renationalizing the the UK railways!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8253804.stm

---------- Post added at 14:55 ---------- Previous post was at 14:53 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob

The big flaw in the privatisation policy was a lack of competition. Only with competition will there be real improvement in services, or reduced costs. There might be some potential for competition with the freight carriers, but certainly for the infrastructure, and for most passenger services, there is only one choice of provider. Thus the whole industgry relies on the layers of regulation to keep itself in check.

But we are probably stuck with the current system, unless someone is going to find yet more non existent funding to buy out all the current incumbents to start with something else. Such a buy out would be unpalateable.

You would need to build a completly new rail network to achive competition, what we need is a state owned railways with a huge amount of investment into it, it would not cost much to Re-Nationalize the Railways! We own the tracks and start buy ending the TOC's franchises!

heero_yuy · 09-02-2012, 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

70% back renationalizing the the UK railways!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8253804.stm

---------- Post added at 14:55 ---------- Previous post was at 14:53 ----------

You would need to build a completly new rail network to achive competition, what we need is a state owned railways with a huge amount of investment into it, it would not cost much to Re-Nationalize the Railways! We own the tracks and start buy ending the TOC's franchises!

I suppose the "rich" and the nasty companies will have to fund this utopian pipe dream as well as all the others

Gary L · 09-02-2012, 15:10

Admin edit (Chris): Inane drivel removed.

**Chris** · 09-02-2012, 18:26

Either post about the topic or don't post at all. The CF team is getting sick of threads being hijacked and diverted by posts that have at best a tangential relationship to the topic under discussion.

**Hugh** · 09-02-2012, 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

70% back renationalizing the the UK railways!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8253804.stm

---------- Post added at 14:55 ---------- Previous post was at 14:53 ----------

You would need to build a completly new rail network to achive competition, what we need is a state owned railways with a huge amount of investment into it, it would not cost much to Re-Nationalize the Railways! We own the tracks and start buy ending the TOC's franchises!

Could I point out your link is two and a half years old, and the survey was held by the RMT - I would love to see the questions asked...

Osem · 09-02-2012, 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh

Could I point out your link is two and a half years old, and the survey was held by the RMT...

Quelle surprise!......

.... and in other equally 'sensational' (and slightly more recent) news, Arthur Scargill has demanded that closed pits in Wales be reopened and import taxes be levied on cheaper imported fuels....

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wa...1466-26105456/

Alan Fry · 10-02-2012, 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh

Could I point out your link is two and a half years old, and the survey was held by the RMT - I would love to see the questions asked...

A lot of people are not happy with the railways they are right now, they waste a lot of taxpayers (aka us) money!

It is about time we ended this mistake!

denphone · 10-02-2012, 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

A lot of people are not happy with the railways they are right now, they waste a lot of taxpayers (aka us) money!

It is about time we ended this mistake!

Its seems everything is a mistake according to your ideaology and please tell me what ideas you have for the Railways then Alan..

**Hugh** · 10-02-2012, 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Fry

A lot of people are not happy with the railways they are right now, they waste a lot of taxpayers (aka us) money!

It is about time we ended this mistake!

Please don't take this the wrong way, but your "answer" has no relation to the question I asked.

Have there been any recent surveys (not by ASLEF or the RMT) showing support for re-nationalisation?