Thousands of children start school in nappies - Survey in Mail

[MarkC1984]

Just reading the Mail Online as I always do, saves buying newspapers. Anyway, saw this story and I find it incredible that parents think it is the school's job to do the toilet training of children, and that teachers and teaching assistants need to spend time changing nappies, cleaning classrooms etc. because there is now a generation of parents too idle and self obsessed to train their children to use a toilet properly.

http://bit.ly/y8XrmX

Would any of you ever send your child to school without them being toilet trained? I know that if I ever changed my mind and had children then I would make sure they were trained before school. My brother and sister were well toilet trained before they ever started in nursery, never mind reception classes.

[Maggy J]

Well maybe we send our children to school far too early. Some European schools wait until 7 and their children do just as well at school as ours who can start at 4 and a half.

[heero_yuy]

When my mother was a welfare auxilliary at a school in the eighties the complaint was that young children had never been taught how to use a knife and fork. If you can't handle these how can you possibly begin to use a pen etc.

I guess things have gone downhill since then.

[Taf]

Our disabled son was still in nappies when we were TOLD to take him to "normal" preschool aged 4.

The next day they asked for us to collect him early as "they hadn't realised".... even though I had told them in the entry paperwork they sent weeks earlier.

The next week he was placed in a Special Needs School.

[djfunkdup]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Well maybe we send our children to school far too early. Some European schools wait until 7 and their children do just as well at school as ours who can start at 4 and a half.

Please tell me you are not being serious ? kids should be toilet trained and off nappies aged 3 at the max....

[Maggy J]

Originally Posted by djfunkdup

Please tell me you are not being serious ? kids should be toilet trained and off nappies aged 3 at the max....

With all due respect children are not all the same.Also my comment was really addressing the issue that other children across Europe go into formal education at a later age but still can compare equally educationally with any child from Britain who start at 4 and a half.

[djfunkdup]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

With all due respect children are not all the same.Also my comment was really addressing the issue that other children across Europe go into formal education at a later age but still can compare equally educationally with any child from Britain who start at 4 and a half.

Yes maggy i understood your point about kids starting school earlier....you could have a valid point their but that in itself is a different subject.


regarding the point in hand here,most kids 'are' actually the same it's the parents that are different..kids don't no anything when they are born.they rely on parents and adults teaching/training them..

toilet training being one of the skills that they need taught from an early age.

most kids will respond to training/teaching in the same way if they get the training that is necessary.

this country is polluted with lazy people and that includes parents unfortunately.. it's the kids i feel sorry for,all they are doing is responding to the attention and training they had as a child.

.
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[Maggy J]

Originally Posted by djfunkdup

Yes maggy i understood your point about kids starting school earlier....you could have a valid point their but that in itself is a different subject.


regarding the point in hand here,most kids 'are' actually the same it's the parents that are different..kids don't no anything when they are born.they rely on parents and adults teaching/training them..

toilet training being one of the skills that they need taught from an early age.

most kids will respond to training/teaching in the same way if they get the training that is necessary.

this country is polluted with lazy people and that includes parents unfortunately.. it's the kids i feel sorry for,all they are doing is responding to the attention and training they had as a child.

.
.

I'm a fully trained qualified teacher and I studied child development as part of my training.The first fact I learned was that not all children are the same or develop at the same pace or level.This covers all aspects of training.So some 4 year olds still need some help in learning the basics whilst some 3 year olds grasp the essentials from the get go.
It's the reason why I think formal education starts too early.I think that they need time to grow at their own pace.I reckon another 18 months would answer just as well and I suspect that by that time they will have developed the fine skills they need for writing,And will cope better.

[martyh]

Originally Posted by djfunkdup

Please tell me you are not being serious ? kids should be toilet trained and off nappies aged 3 at the max....

Totally agree ,2 1/2 -3yrs both my boys where out of nappies .Total parental lazyness if the children are still in nappies after 3-3 1/2 yrs.Yes children do develope at different stages but not that different .The same goes for dummies and drinking from bottles imo

[Chris]

Originally Posted by MarkC1984

Just reading the Mail Online as I always do, saves buying newspapers. Anyway, saw this story and I find it incredible that parents think it is the school's job to do the toilet training of children, and that teachers and teaching assistants need to spend time changing nappies, cleaning classrooms etc. because there is now a generation of parents too idle and self obsessed to train their children to use a toilet properly.

http://bit.ly/y8XrmX

Would any of you ever send your child to school without them being toilet trained? I know that if I ever changed my mind and had children then I would make sure they were trained before school. My brother and sister were well toilet trained before they ever started in nursery, never mind reception classes.

Give the poor parents a break, they're far too busy with the more important aspects of modern living like texting their mates and uploading pictures of last nights empty alcopop bottles to Facebook to bother about any such trivia as nappies.

[Paddy1]

Originally Posted by djfunkdup

most kids will respond to training/teaching in the same way if they get the training that is necessary.

And some wont.

Originally Posted by DM

Almost two-thirds of 850 primary school staff polled said they had seen an increase over the past five years in the number of pupils wetting or soiling themselves.

So possibly 1 five years ago and 2 this year.

Originally Posted by DM

The figure rose to 71 per cent among teachers working with three to five-year-olds, and some schools have been forced to put on parent workshops to help with toilet training.

So what age group were the two thirds talking about?!?

As Maggy says, not all kids progress at the same rate and Taf points out that you must start primary school at 4 years old so some kids just won't be ready.

But then it wouldn't be like the Daily Mail to sensationalise the results of a badly worded questionnaire, would it?

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Paddy1

And some wont.



So possibly 1 five years ago and 2 this year.



So what age group were the two thirds talking about?!?

As Maggy says, not all kids progress at the same rate and Taf points out that you must start primary school at 4 years old so some kids just won't be ready.

But then it wouldn't be like the Daily Mail to sensationalise the results of a badly worded questionnaire, would it?

Similar story from 2009.

As a result, the Association of Teachers and Lecturers has published guidance for members after receiving a 'stream of inquiries from staff asking about their responsibilities when pupils wet or soil themselves in class'.

So blame the people who worded the questionnaire.

The survey was carried out by Education and Resources for Improving Childhood Continence and the Association of Teachers and Lecturers.

So because a report about a survey appears in the 'Daily Mail' and not the 'Guardian', the question must be badly worded. I'm sure you always treat all surveys/studies that way.

[Paddy1]

Originally Posted by nomadking

So blame the people who worded the questionnaire.

Well, here's the survey straight from the horses mouth, so to speak -

http://www.atl.org.uk/media-office/m...RIC-survey.asp


I found this bit interesting, given that it doesn't appear to have been given as much prominence in the press in general.

Over the last ten years the number of children starting school before they have been toilet-trained is likely to have been affected by the SEN Disability Act in 2011 and the Disability Discrimination Act in 2005 (now the Equalities Act 2010), which have led some schools to believe they can no longer refuse to take these children.

So the increase in incidence of little accidents is directly related to the fact that schools can no longer refuse to take "problem" children.

You can read Unison's advice which makes very interesting reading here - www.unison.org.uk/file/A9788.doc

Continence and Toileting Issues in Schools
All schools need to be prepared to deal with pupils who have wet or soiled themselves. Many young children will have an occasional ‘accident’, others may be late-developers or there may be an underlying physical or psychological cause for the wetting or soiling. Schools may find that these types of issues become more acute because of the extension of Early Years provision due to both the increase in the number of hours children may attend nursery and the trend towards early admittance to Reception as well as the increasing numbers of children with SEN entering mainstream education. The latter presents particular complex issues especially when this involves older children.
The purpose of this guidance is to:
• help schools and staff to understand their role in this area, and in particular that if changes are to be made to contracts they must be done with full consultation with the staff unions;
• suggest ways in which schools can adopt policies and practices which will minimise the likelihood of ‘accidents’ occurring; and
• ensure that when they do happen, they are dealt with in an appropriate way that is fully risk assessed.

The Disability Discrimination Act and Staffing Implications

The DDA provides protection for anyone who has a physical, sensory or mental impairment that has an adverse effect on his/her ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities. The effect must be substantial and long-term. It is clear therefore that anyone with a named condition that affects aspects of personal development must not be discriminated against. Education providers have an obligation to meet the needs of children with delayed personal development in the same way as they would meet the individual needs of children with delayed language, or any other kind of delayed development. For instance children should not be excluded from normal pre-school activities solely because of incontinence.
Any admission policy that sets a blanket standard of continence, or any other aspect of development, for all children is discriminatory and therefore unlawful under the Act. All such issues have to be dealt with on an individual basis, and settings/schools are expected to make reasonable adjustments to meet the needs of each child.

Another little statistic I came across - http://kidshealth.chw.edu.au/fact-sh...aytime-wetting

Which states that 20% of 4 - 6 year olds wet themselves with 3% wetting themselves more than twice a week.

So because a report about a survey appears in the 'Daily Mail' and not the 'Guardian', the question must be badly worded. I'm sure you always treat all surveys/studies that way.

I don't read the guardian but it is fair to say that the same basic facts have been reported across the media so touché on that point.