Some prisoners to get the vote

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by devilincarnate

Can we bring back hanging for these type's

If only

[Maggy J]

Originally Posted by martyh

So how does that view of "human rights for all even rapists and murderers" sit when we deny them the right of freedom .

I believe you know that judicial matters trump human rights in regards to criminals receiving the punishments awarded for crimes committed PROVIDED said trial obeys all the basic human rights for the defendant....
I can't say I care for prisoners getting the vote but at the end of the day I believe in us as a society being better than thugs and that we must afford respect to all in regards to human rights.We can't pick and choose however angry we are at the crimes that criminals commit..I want the rule of law to preside over everyone.

After all there have been completely innocent people arrested and prosecuted and imprisoned.Should they lose their basic human rights because they have been very unlucky.It could happen to anyone.

[martyh]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

I believe you know that judicial matters trump human rights in regards to criminals receiving the punishments awarded for crimes committed PROVIDED said trial obeys all the basic human rights for the defendant....
I can't say I care for prisoners getting the vote but at the end of the day I believe in us as a society being better than thugs and that we must afford respect to all in regards to human rights.We can't pick and choose however angry we are at the crimes that criminals commit..I want the rule of law to preside over everyone.

After all there have been completely innocent people arrested and prosecuted and imprisoned.Should they lose their basic human rights because they have been very unlucky.It could happen to anyone.

imprisonment is all about denying human rights though that is the purpose .We deny a rapist ,murderer,thief the right of freedom as punishment for their crimes so why should prisoners ,especially long term ones get any influence in the society they have been removed from because of their crimes ,and it's no good keep banging on about "but we shouldn't take away their basic human rights" because we do it everyday .
I don't think voting is a basic human right anyway ,it's something we invented to make society work better

[idi banashapan]

i thought the whole point of prison was that the offender has all their liberties taken away from them. before too long, prison won't be a punishment. free roof over their head, free bed, free food, tv, free further education, games consoles, the right to vote. only thing they have to do is be in their rooms by 8pm or whatever. wow... almost as bad as being grounded by mum and dad...

as much as this will TOTALLY get peoples goat going, the way I believe prison should be is during your term, you get locked in a cell with a camping bed, a sink and a toilet. food slid under the door at meal time. an hour walking around a small courtyard each day, then back in your cell. it's MEANT to be a punishment. ONLY when the punishment has been served should we even consider providing reintegration counselling with board so they can have a chance of finding work or apprenticeships or if they wish, get that further education under their belt.

"wah wah - how will this solve the problem?" I hear you shout. "locking them in a room doesn't make them better people." Maybe not, but they sure as hell won't want to go back inside for any length of time. in order to not get thrown in, they need to abide by the law, like the rest of us do.

"It comes as separate figures showed up to 20,000 offenders given cautions are going on to commit another offence within a month. And one in four offenders given community sentences or released from prison early on licence fail to comply with the terms set down by the authorities." cited

I guess prison currently is not much of a deterrent.


"Other figures showed that 14,994 offences were committed by adults within a month of them being cautioned in 2009. And a further 6,007 offences were committed by children and teenagers under 18 within a month of being given a reprimand or final warning. The figures rose steeply, going up to a total of more than 30,000 offences by adults within two months, and more than 70,000 within six months. After a year, 85,750 re-offences were committed by adults and 39,697 by under 18s." same place

prison should be a horrible, nasty place where people do NOT want to go under any circumstances. a punishment should be just that. I also believe regardless of the crime commited, the punishment should be the same - the only difference being the amount of time you are punished for.

you may begin flogging my comments now.....

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by idi banashapan

i thought the whole point of prison was that the offender has all their liberties taken away from them. before too long, prison won't be a punishment. free roof over their head, free bed, free food, tv, free further education, games consoles, the right to vote. only thing they have to do is be in their rooms by 8pm or whatever. wow... almost as bad as being grounded by mum and dad...

as much as this will TOTALLY get peoples goat going, the way I believe prison should be is during your term, you get locked in a cell with a camping bed, a sink and a toilet. food slid under the door at meal time. an hour walking around a small courtyard each day, then back in your cell. it's MEANT to be a punishment. ONLY when the punishment has been served should we even consider providing reintegration counselling with board so they can have a chance of finding work or apprenticeships or if they wish, get that further education under their belt.

"wah wah - how will this solve the problem?" I hear you shout. "locking them in a room doesn't make them better people." Maybe not, but they sure as hell won't want to go back inside for any length of time. in order to not get thrown in, they need to abide by the law, like the rest of us do.

"It comes as separate figures showed up to 20,000 offenders given cautions are going on to commit another offence within a month. And one in four offenders given community sentences or released from prison early on licence fail to comply with the terms set down by the authorities." cited

I guess prison currently is not much of a deterrent.


"Other figures showed that 14,994 offences were committed by adults within a month of them being cautioned in 2009. And a further 6,007 offences were committed by children and teenagers under 18 within a month of being given a reprimand or final warning. The figures rose steeply, going up to a total of more than 30,000 offences by adults within two months, and more than 70,000 within six months. After a year, 85,750 re-offences were committed by adults and 39,697 by under 18s." same place

prison should be a horrible, nasty place where people do NOT want to go under any circumstances. a punishment should be just that. I also believe regardless of the crime commited, the punishment should be the same - the only difference being the amount of time you are punished for.

you may begin flogging my comments now.....

This may shock you but most prisons are horrible nasty places to be in, with facilities similar to what you describe except only a few years back you didn't even have a toilet, the vast majority of these cushy prison stories I hear are either young offenders institutes which doesn't apply to voting or private prisons where it's cheaper to bang some one up with a play station than employ staff to keep them in order or teachers to ensure that none of them leave without being able to read or write and no matter how bad we make prison it won't be worse than the old Victorian ones and guess what they didn't deter anyone from crime, even hanging children for stealing bread or deporting them didn't deter them.

[Maggy J]

Originally Posted by martyh

imprisonment is all about denying human rights though that is the purpose .We deny a rapist ,murderer,thief the right of freedom as punishment for their crimes so why should prisoners ,especially long term ones get any influence in the society they have been removed from because of their crimes ,and it's no good keep banging on about "but we shouldn't take away their basic human rights" because we do it everyday .
I don't think voting is a basic human right anyway ,it's something we invented to make society work better

We can remove freedom.However we can't starve,beat,torture,deny family contact,deny exercise,deny access to solicitors and we can't keep prisoners in conditions that are abusive.Ie they must have accommodations that are of a certain standard.

[martyh]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

We can remove freedom.However we can't starve,beat,torture,deny family contact,deny exercise,deny access to solicitors and we can't keep prisoners in conditions that are abusive.Ie they must have accommodations that are of a certain standard.

Exactly my point thank you for making it ,we pick and choose what rights people should have and the right to vote quite rightly , is one of them .

---------- Post added at 22:44 ---------- Previous post was at 22:36 ----------

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

This may shock you but most prisons are horrible nasty places to be in, with facilities similar to what you describe except only a few years back you didn't even have a toilet, the vast majority of these cushy prison stories I hear are either young offenders institutes which doesn't apply to voting or private prisons where it's cheaper to bang some one up with a play station than employ staff to keep them in order or teachers to ensure that none of them leave without being able to read or write and no matter how bad we make prison it won't be worse than the old Victorian ones and guess what they didn't deter anyone from crime, even hanging children for stealing bread or deporting them didn't deter them.

I know quite a few ex cons who have been in prisons like Winson Green and Durham and they reckon they are nasty places simply because of the fact they are told what to do .They did have some privileges but they are not by any stretch of the medias imagination little hotels where prisoners can do as they please .As you say those type of prisons tend to be open ,low security or young offenders institutions

[Peter_]

If you are in jail for crime you have committed then you have chosen to ignore society and its rules therefore why should a criminal be given the right to vote, remember their criminal activity was of their own choice plus they may have actually committed their crime against you.

If a person is jailed all rights pertaining to a civilised society should be removed upon entering the penal system, anything less shows that you have a leaning to towards the handringing dogooder liberal namby pamby brigade, you probably think that criminals should not be jailed as it infringes their human rights because you have decided the victim does not count and may have brought it on themselves possibly like the victim in this CASE.

[Maggy J]

Originally Posted by martyh

Exactly my point thank you for making it ,we pick and choose what rights people should have and the right to vote quite rightly , is one of them .

I have also pointed out to all the hang'em high vigilante types that always hang about threads like this that we are not a vigilante society and thankfully their wishes are not paramount in law.
It is very lucky that they have CF to come and rant about it with like minded individuals..

Now I'm going to follow Hugh's and Ignitionnet's example and withdraw from a fruitless rant thread.Circular argu...discussions just become boring after a while.

[Gary L]

What about in cases where someone's sent to prison for not paying their TV licence or council tax?
what should a prison environment be like for them?

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by Gary L

What about in cases where someone's sent to prison for not paying their TV licence or council tax?
what should a prison environment be like for them?

Some "offences" should never have been criminal ones in the first place.

Why it is a "crime" to thumb your nose at the BBC is quite beyond me.

[Chrysalis]

good old UK media doing misleading reporting here.

Currently the uk has a blanket ban on prisoners voting which is illegal and also lacks common sense, eg. someone in prison for a week for a fine wouldnt be allowed to vote.

[Sirius]

Well i hope we tell the ECHR to but out and let us make our own laws.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20381222

Conservative MP, Sir Edward Garnier, a former solicitor general, said the justice secretary was in a difficult position.

"The government is stuck between its treaty and rule of law obligations to respect the judgement of the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg and the antipathy within parliament to giving prisoners the vote," he said.

"Parliament and the wider general public simply don't want to be told what to do by the European Court of Human Rights, not least in this particular regard."

Shadow home secretary Yvette Cooper said a vote on legislation would strengthen the UK's argument that it should retain its ban.

Prisoners should not have the vote and the ECHR should keep there bloody noses out of our business.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Sirius

Well i hope we tell the ECHR to but out and let us make our own laws.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20381222



Prisoners should not have the vote and the ECHR should keep there bloody noses out of our business.

I think it helps protect our democracy and is a good thing, should be extended to all prisoners imo

[Derek]

Just think. If prisoners had the vote they could have doubled the turnout for the Police Commisioner elections.