Don't Mention The War - Page 2

**Damien** · 07-09-2010, 12:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius

I fully agree. I was just making my point that they should never be allowed to forget what happened and no where did i say anyone had said that. My personal feeling is that if they get away with this it will just be the start.

No way should we role over and allow this.

They don't profess a desire to forget, they are quite capable of reminding future generations of the horrors of Nazi Germany without us. That is commendable considering I don't recall learning about our dark past in some parts of the Empire.

They are not trying to get away with anything either, it's one politician and a tabloid newspaper. Considering our papers use any excuse to wheel out the Germany references I don't think we can claim much moral highground there.

TheDaddy · 07-09-2010, 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius

I fully agree. I was just making my point that they should never be allowed to forget what happened and no where did i say anyone had said that. My personal feeling is that if they get away with this it will just be the start.

No way should we role over and allow this.

They don't want to forget, you only have to look at their childrens education to know that.

**Damien** · 07-09-2010, 12:47

Parade from St Paul's just went past our window. Lots of people clapping by the sides..

**Stuart** · 07-09-2010, 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius

Sod them, Its sour grapes because we won.

However in my opinion they have no right to lecture anyone considering there legacy from the second world war and the amount of innocent people they murdered in concentration camps and they should NEVER be allowed to forget that.

While I do not condone the German's actions in any way, it's worth remembering that one faction (the Nazis) were the ones responsible for all that. I doubt that the average German was any more to blame than we are for the actions of our elected party. Yet, we persist in blaming the Germans as a whole when we should be blaming the Nazis.

Let me put into perspective. A lot of innocent iraqis have been injured or killed as a result of the war. Are you responsible for that? No. Beyond possibly voting for the government who caused it. Of course you aren't. The german population are no more responsible for the actions of the Nazis than you are for the actions of our government.

The modern Germans are even less responsible as how can you influence things before you were born? If we are going to hold entire populations responsible for the actions of their ancestors, we've got an entire empire to atone for (unless you think all those countries surrendered control willingly).

frogstamper · 08-09-2010, 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob

Today is the 70th anniversary of the London Blitz's Commencement. Something like 56 days (I think) of bombing raids every day.

At the time of WWII, precision bombing of specific targets that we know today did not exist. The Germans first started the mass bombing of civilian populations. They just didn't have the equipment to achieve the devastation that the Allies were able to return in the latter part of the war. Historically we might look back on it today and consider it excessive, inappropriate, it was a strategy both sides were willing to engage.

We should remember that whilst thousands lost their lives on the ground as a result of the raids and that they should not be forgotten, Bomber Crews from both sides also suffered heavy losses carrying out the tactics of the era and too should be acknowledged for their sacrifice.

It should be mentioned that the USAF based in Britain were vociferously against the wholesale bombing of German cities and did not engage in it, whilst we bombed by night the US bombed by day aiming for military targets in and around cities like marshaling yards, munition factory's and any industry that helped the German war effort.
I'm not condemning Bomber Command they were very brave young men doing an almost impossible task, but the likes of Arthur "Bomber" Harris was convinced he could win the war by bombing the German civilian population into submission.
I fail to see how he could have believed this would have ever worked, especially after seeing the effect of the Blitz on Londoners, all this type of terror bombing achieves is to galvanize the local populace against a common enemy.
Of course after three years of war the public, politicians and the military were far more desensitized to the horrors of war and were more prepared to accept missions that would have been considered unconscionable prior to the war, both Churchill and Hitler both said they would never bomb civilians in cities before 39.
There are some things we done during the war that with hindsight probably wasn't our finest hour, like the wholesale devastation we brought about on Hamburg, Dresden, Mannheim and other German cities in the last year of the war.
As mentioned earlier the US 8th Air Force under General Jimmy Doolittle were very much against our strategy of area bombing, so its doubly ironic that it was the USAF who carried out the first two atomic raids wiping out two cities completely.

TheDaddy · 08-09-2010, 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by frogstamper

the likes of Arthur "Bomber" Harris was convinced he could win the war by bombing the German civilian population into submission.
I fail to see how he could have believed this would have ever worked, especially after seeing the effect of the Blitz on Londoners, all this type of terror bombing achieves is to galvanize the local populace against a common enemy.
Of course after three years of war the public, politicians and the military were far more desensitized to the horrors of war and were more prepared to accept missions that would have been considered unconscionable prior to the war, both Churchill and Hitler both said they would never bomb civilians in cities before 39.
There are some things we done during the war that with hindsight probably wasn't our finest hour, like the wholesale devastation we brought about on Hamburg, Dresden, Mannheim and other German cities in the last year of the war.
As mentioned earlier the US 8th Air Force under General Jimmy Doolittle were very much against our strategy of area bombing, so its doubly ironic that it was the USAF who carried out the first two atomic raids wiping out two cities completely.

Churchill actually wrote to Harris asking him to try and limit civillian casualties and Montgomery was scathing about him after Hamburg.

Stronger words today

The respected Dresdner Neueste Nachrichten newspaper branded the raids war crimes and asked: “Why was the RAF’s Bomber Command chief Arthur Harris never once invited to a post-war victory parade in Berlin? Why did animals who served in the Second World War get a memorial but not bomber crews?

“The answer lies in a single word – Dresden. The air strikes from February 13, 1945 lie on the conscience of the English. By February 1945 this fight against civilians began to have the taste of a war crime.

http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/198170

TheNorm · 08-09-2010, 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by frogstamper

It should be mentioned that the USAF ....

Very good post.

Just one point - the USAF did not exist until 1947. I believe you are referring to the US Army Air Force.

**Maggy J** · 08-09-2010, 07:42

Both sides have got nothing to be proud of going right back to WW 1 when the Germans and just about everyone was thinking about and actually using aircraft to deliver bombs to the civilian populations.Indeed that's how many troops were gassed in the trenches..

It is time to lay the animosity to rest.The whole world was devastated by both world wars..it is 65 years since Peace was declared in the last one..WE have so many monuments and memorials already. Do we REALLY need another?

Surely the best memorial to all the dead of both wars is the fact that such a discussion can take place over these issues and that we can actually listen and reason like adults.That was what our fathers and grand fathers and great grandfathers fought for.

berkut · 08-09-2010, 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maggy J

.......Surely the best memorial to all the dead of both wars is the fact that such a discussion can take place over these issues and that we can actually listen and reason like adults.That was what our fathers and grand fathers and great grandfathers fought for.

the_neurotic_cat · 08-09-2010, 12:30

Politicians love to glorify war. They are the ones that start them after all. The more I learn about the events leading up to WW2 the more I realize that our 'beloved' politicians asked for every single bomb that was dropped on London. Criminally, it's the population that paid with their lives for our elites arrogance and greed, as did the German population.

We're trained to glorify politicians like Churchill the way they glorify war. Disgusting.

**Damien** · 08-09-2010, 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_neurotic_cat

Politicians love to glorify war. They are the ones that start them after all. The more I learn about the events leading up to WW2 the more I realize that our 'beloved' politicians asked for every single bomb that was dropped on London. Criminally, it's the population that paid with their lives for our elites arrogance and greed, as did the German population.

We're trained to glorify politicians like Churchill the way they glorify war. Disgusting.

I agree that people, not just Politicians, glorify war. I think when talking about WW2 some people tip over from pride and respect for the generation that fought that war and into gloating and chest-beating. I don't like this because it seems to treat it as a positive thing, rather than an awful thing which was thrust onto a generation.

However I not sure I agree that politicians were asking for it. Chamberlain after all is (unfairly) mocked for his failed attempts to avoid it after all.

Pog66 · 08-09-2010, 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_neurotic_cat

The more I learn about the events leading up to WW2 the more I realize that our 'beloved' politicians asked for every single bomb that was dropped on London.

Pray tell - Chamberlain did everything is his power to appease the Nazi's - to such an extent that Hitler did not believe that Britain would fight. Consequently Hitler continued ploughing through Europe. Is this asking to be bombed?

Pierre · 08-09-2010, 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_neurotic_cat

The more I learn about the events leading up to WW2 the more I realize that our 'beloved' politicians asked for every single bomb that was dropped on London.

I would dearly love you to expand on that..............................

**Stuart** · 08-09-2010, 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_neurotic_cat

Politicians love to glorify war. They are the ones that start them after all. The more I learn about the events leading up to WW2 the more I realize that our 'beloved' politicians asked for every single bomb that was dropped on London. Criminally, it's the population that paid with their lives for our elites arrogance and greed, as did the German population.

We're trained to glorify politicians like Churchill the way they glorify war. Disgusting.

I don't glorify politicians. At all. However, I would love to hear how "our 'beloved' politicians asked for every single bomb that was dropped on London", and therefore asked for thousands of innocent people to die.