Wot No Screaming About Cameron's Gaffe?

[Osem]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

The ambulance-chasers will be coming out of the woodwork on that one.

Yes I wonder which 'gaffe' the government will be most worried about.

[BBKing]

Thinking about Xaccers point, I think where he's making his error is in assuming the US and UK had a special relationship in 1940 - we didn't, it was a product of the war and the post-war realignment, particularly the UKUSA intel agreement and the nuclear secrets deals. Before the mid-20th century the dominant power in the world was Britain and the US were very much an inward looking country concentrating on their own deveopment and with a fair sprinkling of prominent Anglophobes, including John F Kennedy's father and Charles Lindbergh, who was a bit of an anti-Semite who'd met Hitler. If you've got a moment, look up why Churchill sent Roald Dahl to New York to literally **** the US into liking Britain more.

So in 1940 we weren't 'partners' with the US in any way relevant to the state of affairs from 1941 to the present, so there wasn't a question of being 'junior' (in fact, if such a thing had existed we would have been arguably the senior partner, given that the US military was small and rather localised and we had the Royal Navy and the Empire).

The US ended up very much the senior partner due to mobilising its industrial and scientific capacity and population, but that was all post-December 1941 and the War from then onward effectively became a slug-fest between the USSR and Germany with the US backing the Soviets. In 1940 it was us, our Empire (Canada, New Zealand and Australia) and the exiled occupied countries versus Hitler. Even the Eagle Squadrons (privately organised US aircrew fighting for personal reasons) weren't around until 1941, although a few US pilots fought in 1940.

For interest, the population of the US in 1940 was 132 million. The UK : about 47 million. Throw in the Empire (particularly India, which had about 350 million at independence, Canada had 11.5 million, Australia 7 million, NZ 1.6 million) and it's clear we'd actually have a pretty fair claim to be the senior partner.

Still, it's nice to know the Prime Minister's expensive private education didn't include any of these facts.

[Hugh]

Or he could have just made a mistake?

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by BBKing

Still, it's nice to know the Prime Minister's expensive private education didn't include any of these facts.

And here we get to the crux of the matter. You see him as a toff and how dare he be PM because of it.
That's one hell of a chip on your shoulder.

We had worked with the US in WW1, we had worked with the US before 1941 as demonstrated by the destroyers for bases and cash and carry agreements.
It was due to our relationship with the US, developed by Churchill and Roosevelt, that we secured food, oil and munitions from the US prior to 1940.
Roosevelt started work on the lend lease bill pretty much as soon as he was re-elected, oh when was that? Oh yes, 1940.
Too bad your education didn't cover that.

[danielf]

Originally Posted by foreverwar

Or he could have just made a mistake?

gaffe also gaff
n.
1. A clumsy social error; a faux pas: "The excursion had in his eyes been a monstrous gaffe, a breach of sensibility and good taste" (Mary McCarthy).
2. A blatant mistake or misjudgment.

[BBKing]

Or he could have just made a mistake?

Yes, I think that's pretty undeniable.

And here we get to the crux of the matter. You see him as a toff and how dare he be PM because of it.
That's one hell of a chip on your shoulder.

Classy, Xac, you've been proved by ten minutes research to be talking nonsense and now you're playing the man instead of the ball. You don't change, do you?

Thing is Britain stood off in the beginning while Germany invaded a few areas of Europe. Austria had already fallen in 1938 as had part of Czechoslovakia ,Britain and France allowed this under the promise of no further action from Hitler.In 1939 Hitler invaded the rest of Czechoslovakia. It wasnt until this point Britain and France realised they needed to stand in and they garrenteed support for Poland.

It wasnt until Japan had attacked British and American holdings in Asia ( the US had placed an oil embargo on Japan) that the USA and GB became allies in war. Then of course came Pearl Harbour at which point the USA GB and other allies war declared against Japan.


What came next was Germany and the rest of the Tripartite Pact declared war against the USA so in the end the US had little choice.

But the point I took so long to make is that GB allowed Hitler to gain power and build an army in the first place then allowed him to start invading areas of Europe around Germany. The US didnt join the war until the war was bought to them and neither did GB it wasnt until it started getting close and obvious Hitler was not going to stop that we went to war

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by BBKing

Yes, I think that's pretty undeniable.



Classy, Xac, you've been proved by ten minutes research to be talking nonsense and now you're playing the man instead of the ball. You don't change, do you?

This from the person who made comments about Cameron's "expensive private education" and who posts the above rather than address the facts given.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

This from the person who made comments about Cameron's "expensive private education" and who posts the above rather than address the facts given.

Playing the man instead of the ball you mean?

[Horace]

In the context of any battle post WWII we always have been and will be a junior partner, we don't have the military presence to be anything else considering the scale of US forces. WWII was a different matter, we were then a formidable military force using resources from the commonwealth along with our own outstanding air,sea, intelligence and reconnaissance forces which could be argued as being the best in the world (not in numbers but quality) at that point in time.

[Angua]

Perhaps DC learnt his history from American WWII movies They do tend to portray how the Americans almost single handedly won the war.

[Xaccers]

I find it intersting how the media are trying to work this up into a story.
He was refering to the relationship between the US and the UK in 1940, not about the fighting of WW2.
Despite our huge empire and power at the time, what supplies and support we were going to get was in the hands of the supposedly weaker US.
We couldn't bully them into sending food and munitions, but we did have a relationship back in 1940 before the US got directly involved in the fighting.

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by Angua

Perhaps DC learnt his history from American WWII movies They do tend to portray how the Americans almost single handedly won the war.

Rather in the same vein as the wonderful american movie U571 about how they captured the Enigma machine, as usual utter claptrap.

[Hom3r]

The thing is, DC is a Mod Edit

Come on you know better...

Maggy J
Cable Forum Team

[frogstamper]

I don't think Cameron would have made the "we were the junior partner in 1940 whilst we were fighting the Nazis" had he been in Britain, weather it was a genuine mistake or weather his surroundings coloured his statement, surely there can be no doubt that prior to Dec 40 America played no active part in WW2, ergo our only partners were the then dominions.
Obviously as the war went on the US became by far the senior partner, by the last months of the war when the "big three" met at Yalta it must have become ever more apparent to Churchill the real big players were Roosevelt and Stallin, Britain was almost bankrupt at this stage.
Just a point while we are on this subject about the dopey "special relationship", Canada believes it has a special relationship with the US which their politicians wheedle into joint statements, South Korea also has a special relationship with the US as does Japan.
It is cringingly embarrassing every time a British PM meets the President we have to roll out this tired old claim, whatever happens we will always be politically close to the US, it has been and will continue to be beneficial for both of us.

Originally Posted by BBKing

Thinking about Xaccers point, I think where he's making his error is in assuming the US and UK had a special relationship in 1940 - we didn't, it was a product of the war and the post-war realignment, particularly the UKUSA intel agreement and the nuclear secrets deals. Before the mid-20th century the dominant power in the world was Britain and the US were very much an inward looking country concentrating on their own deveopment and with a fair sprinkling of prominent Anglophobes, including John F Kennedy's father and Charles Lindbergh, who was a bit of an anti-Semite who'd met Hitler. If you've got a moment, look up why Churchill sent Roald Dahl to New York to literally **** the US into liking Britain more.

So in 1940 we weren't 'partners' with the US in any way relevant to the state of affairs from 1941 to the present, so there wasn't a question of being 'junior' (in fact, if such a thing had existed we would have been arguably the senior partner, given that the US military was small and rather localised and we had the Royal Navy and the Empire).

The US ended up very much the senior partner due to mobilising its industrial and scientific capacity and population, but that was all post-December 1941 and the War from then onward effectively became a slug-fest between the USSR and Germany with the US backing the Soviets. In 1940 it was us, our Empire (Canada, New Zealand and Australia) and the exiled occupied countries versus Hitler. Even the Eagle Squadrons (privately organised US aircrew fighting for personal reasons) weren't around until 1941, although a few US pilots fought in 1940.

For interest, the population of the US in 1940 was 132 million. The UK : about 47 million. Throw in the Empire (particularly India, which had about 350 million at independence, Canada had 11.5 million, Australia 7 million, NZ 1.6 million) and it's clear we'd actually have a pretty fair claim to be the senior partner.

Still, it's nice to know the Prime Minister's expensive private education didn't include any of these facts.

Excellent post.