An Orwellian step too far?

[Enuff]

Every phone call and every email. How would they manage to monitor a database like this?

Ministers are to consider plans for a database of electronic information holding details of every phone call and e-mail sent in the UK, it has emerged.

The plans, reported in the Times, are at an early stage and may be included in the draft Communications Bill later this year, the Home Office confirmed.

A Home Office spokesman said the data is a "crucial tool" for protecting national security and prevent crime.

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[frogstamper]

Holy Hell, is this government really that insane? as a Labour voter in the last three elections Ive been hard pushed to try and defend some of their policies, but to suggest a national database that is capable of collecting and holding every e-mail and phone call made by the public is tantamount to a dictatorship. For them to roll out the old chestnut of national security is now so weak, its almost ineffectual, if the security services need to covertly tap somebody's phone or intercept their e-mails, let them go to a judge to seek permission. The wholesale monitoring of a society is totally unacceptable, surely even this government can see that!! if not they should try and introduce it and see how long they last at the next election, it would be political suicide. Even I, as a Labour voter now believe this lot have been in power to long, it seems to me that two terms is about right for any government, any longer breeds complacency. It happened to the previous Tory government and now that is being repeated with this Labour government, don't get comfy Gordon.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by frogstamper

don't get comfy Gordon.

I have been saying that for the last few years.

But it was Blair at first now i am saying it about this cretin instead.

[Anonymouse]

What, I wonder, will the Opposition - or indeed Labour's own backbenchers - make of this? What happens if the database includes their own calls/emails, as logically it should? That is straight out of 1984 - a government which doesn't even trust itself.

Will they be monitoring the Royal Family? If not, why not? Who's going to monitor the police - the police? Don't the Armed Forces use phones and email? Foreign diplomats visiting/working in the UK? That, by definition, is espionage - which, last time I checked, was a criminal offence pretty much everywhere in the world. Can you imagine what Bush would say if he discovered UK police were spying on American diplomats?!

This will give the "terrorists" the UK on a platter. When that database is hacked or media are lost - WHEN, not "if" - the criminals will be able to retire on the potential profits. Retire? Hell, they'll be able to raise bloody families!

Allegedly this'll bring the UK in line with EU legislation - but I cannot believe that legislation actually means anything like this! Alexander! Take a brief break, if you will, and please clarify for us what the EU legislation mentioned actually refers to - before we all have to either give up the Internet and phones or encrypt everything! (And then get hauled in by the Home Office, in our millions, and ordered under RIPA to hand over our encryption keys, because obviously we're up to no good if we're using encryption!)

[Paddy1]

Ah, so that's why nobody in government will give a straight answer about PHORM .

Are they going to monitor businesses? If so, we can wave bye bye to a fair few jobs as businesses flee the country. If not, then what's the point.

Actually, wait for the classic nu-labour tactic of climbing down on this and appearing to offer a compromise. It's hard to see how they can though. They either monitor only emails or only phonecalls? There's no point in them saying ok we'll only monior header information, not content, as that's pretty much done today for "billing" purposes. Are text messages already stored?

Even if they do get away with this won't terrorists et al just resort to snail mail. What? they're gonna photocopy or scan that too?

[WHISTLED]

I dont like the idea but all the information is already there for them if they request it so its not much of a change.

Practically the more data they have the more difficult it is to make use of it - I believe the NSA also became un-stuck with their scheme.

[punky]

If the NHS IT project is anything to go by, this will never get implemented anyway (just enrich thousands of IT consultants)

[Stuart C]

Originally Posted by Anonymouse

What, I wonder, will the Opposition - or indeed Labour's own backbenchers - make of this? What happens if the database includes their own calls/emails, as logically it should? That is straight out of 1984 - a government which doesn't even trust itself.

Will they be monitoring the Royal Family? If not, why not? Who's going to monitor the police - the police? Don't the Armed Forces use phones and email? Foreign diplomats visiting/working in the UK? That, by definition, is espionage - which, last time I checked, was a criminal offence pretty much everywhere in the world. Can you imagine what Bush would say if he discovered UK police were spying on American diplomats?!

As I understand it, UK law only applies to foreign diplomats if the foreign government agrees. Generally, the laws from the Diplomat's own country apply to him/her. So, unless the foreign governments agree, this will not apply to foreign diplomats.

Also, the UK government is rather adept at ensuring that the laws it passes do not apply to the UK government.

This will give the "terrorists" the UK on a platter. When that database is hacked or media are lost - WHEN, not "if" - the criminals will be able to retire on the potential profits. Retire? Hell, they'll be able to raise bloody families!

Allegedly this'll bring the UK in line with EU legislation - but I cannot believe that legislation actually means anything like this! Alexander! Take a brief break, if you will, and please clarify for us what the EU legislation mentioned actually refers to - before we all have to either give up the Internet and phones or encrypt everything! (And then get hauled in by the Home Office, in our millions, and ordered under RIPA to hand over our encryption keys, because obviously we're up to no good if we're using encryption!)

This law will not work. For it to work, they need to do a couple of things.

1) Require registration of all phones, and that the registrant's details be checked. Until such details are checked, the phone needs to be blocked at the network level. This is similar to a rule that is (apparently) in force in Turkey.

2) Ban free email.

Of course, even doing the above won't really impact anyone really determined to perform a terrorist act. Nothing to stop them nicking someone else's phone, unblocking their phones (fairly certain the technology exists to do this) and even if free email addy's are banned, then there is nothing stopping someone in a country that doesn't have an equivalent law giving you an email account.

This is just another example of a government that is in love with (the rather paranoid) US government and has a fascination with technology but doesn't understand (or think through) the implications of that technology.

[LSainsbury]

Unbelievable!

Come on Gord - call that election....

PS - Can we rename this thread to " Phone calls database considered" as I nearly posted the same article!

[punky]

I don't think its mentioned in the article but they also aim to track online usage. How the hell they will with broadband, I don't know. Maybe they mean all ISPs will have to track website viewings and bandwidth usage and provide it to the government. Maybe it some bespoke China-influenced system at network level.

I suspect this will get thrown out at the earliest possible opportunity, as not only is morally questionable, its nigh-on a physical impossibility. I suspect also that is this is Brown posturing to appear as a strong leader by appearing to do whatever it takes to combat terrorism. I don't think anyone's going to buy it though.

Besides, if the government is inspecting and caching communications (i.e. GCHQ eavesdropping which is sensible and necessary to a degree) it should be covert so as not to give enemies a chance to bypass it, not widely detailed and discussed in parliament/media.

[RizzyKing]

I think this is just GB being GB and wanting to control more and more afterall thats his personality as many who know him have stated. Longer labour and GB are in power the more we will see this kind of crap from them and although the excuses will have long ago lost their relevence or pratical application they will be trotted out as the reason for the most invasive of security measures. Give it time GB will be telling us we need to have armed police on every street and then oneday you wake up and democracy is gone.

[frogstamper]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Give it time GB will be telling us we need to have armed police on every street and then oneday you wake up and democracy is gone.

No doubt we'd be told our democracy went for security reasons, and that we are safer and better off without it.!

[TheNorm]

Originally Posted by Enuff

Every phone call and every email. How would they manage to monitor a database like this? ...

90% of the emails I receive are spam! Good luck going through that lot!

Originally Posted by Sirius

...But it was Blair at first now i am saying it about this cretin instead.

Who elected this guy anyway?

[Enuff]

I'm sure I read somewhere (a couple of years ago) that this was already happening.

[Kevin T]

Big Brother is watching in Manchester now...

Originally Posted by The BBC

Almost every car travelling into Manchester is being snapped by a new network of police surveillance cameras, it has emerged.
Each day, 600,000 motorists' journeys are being captured, and police will store the data for five years to help combat terrorism, crime and car theft.

<snip>
Manchester is the first city outside London to use Automatic Number Plate Recognition cameras in this way.

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