Christians told to treat atheists and agnostics with "deep esteem"

[zinglebarb]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

There is the Athiest's golden rule:

Don't do to others what you don't want them to do to you
(somewhat more respectful than the christians golden rule of do unto others as you would have them do unto you) 1

Personally, I try and treat people with the respect that they deserve, which of course changes with their actions. 2
Someone for instance who is able to enter into a theological discussion without mentioning:
the usual suspects
waaaah the athiests are bashing me
religion is the cause of all wars
the bible's totally made up

will get plenty of respect from me (ie Towney) where as I'm sure someone who tells you that it's tough luck that your family should die at the command of their god wouldn't get much respect from you. 3

1 isnt that the same? nobody wants themselves harmed im confused lol

2 I have no problem with that and act the same pretty much

3 the only time I think that actually happens in the bible is n the Book of Job but I could well be wrong and Job did get rewarded for his trials and it wasn't God who actually did the damage at that time

---------- Post added at 22:36 ---------- Previous post was at 22:34 ----------

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Believers belittle non-believers all the time as well.
Just look at the patronising statement quoted by Cobby.

Lets not forget the creationists either, nor the Jehovah's witnesses who I experienced Elders encouraging followers to mistreat non-believers who refuse to convert.

That congregation is totally different to my experience of that religion. I used to be one remember used to do the door knocking and have first hand experience of that religion. I would not lie to you or anyone about it but I never witnessed anything even remotely like it

---------- Post added at 22:37 ---------- Previous post was at 22:36 ----------

Originally Posted by Cobbydaler

I'm not belittling believers, I just find it offensive that someone is telling me a hidden God is active in my life.

Believers don't necessarily hold the moral high ground...

The God I believe in looks out for you and those who do not have faith am I patronising you for thinking that or do I have a faith in a loving God??

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by zinglebarb

1 isnt that the same? nobody wants themselves harmed im confused lol

2 I have no problem with that and act the same pretty much

3 the only time I think that actually happens in the bible is n the Book of Job but I could well be wrong and Job did get rewarded for his trials

1. There's a subtle but important difference. The xian rule puts your own wishes ahead of other peoples, ie if you'd like something done to you, go ahead and do it to others whether they'd like it or not.
While the Athiest's rule puts any detrimental effect of your actions ahead of your own wishes.

2. Pretty much

3. Happens quite a lot, the slaughter of the Caananites, first born of Egypt, book of revelations - anyone not considered xian is to be killed.

Originally Posted by zinglebarb

The God I believe in looks out for you and those who do not have faith am I patronising you for thinking that or do I have a faith in a loving God??

You're patronising, although you don't mean to be, so I forgive you
Seriously though, it'd be like me saying "Drop-dead-fred, my imaginary friend, will help you if you ever feel low, that's how important and seriously I take your well being, I'm letting my imaginary friend be there for you" see what I mean?
No problem with people being religious, no problem with those of them who choose to worship dieties who are morally lacking (just wish they'd open their eyes and admit it), but do keep it to yourself where other people are concerned. Not too much to ask is it?

It's that golden rule again, yours lets you push your religious beliefs onto others, because you've not got a problem with a xian doing that to you.
Ours on the other hand says "woah big fella, it's a personal thing, help them as a person, don't go telling them they are wrong to believe, you made your choice, they made theirs, if they want to talk about it, let them ask"

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by zinglebarb

The God I believe in looks out for you and those who do not have faith am I patronising you for thinking that or do I have a faith in a loving God??

There is no harm whatsoever in believing that our God is in the hearts of ALL men and women. Personally I don't undestand why those who do not (or cannot) share this belief take such offense at it. Islamics would have me believe Allah is god - I don't get offended. I believe them to be very wrong but patronising? I think that's just overdoing the 'persecuted atheist' bit.

[frogstamper]

As a confirmed atheist myself its good to hear a prominent voice from the religious community encouraging respect for anyone outside of their own religion. The archbishop mentioning respect for atheist's puts me in mind of that quote George H Bush made, "atheist's are neither citizens or patriots", that's one thing I do prefer about our election system, religion on the whole is kept out of politics, where as in the US in some debates you'd think they were electing a vicar not a president.


http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/ghwbush.htm

[zinglebarb]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

1. There's a subtle but important difference. The xian rule puts your own wishes ahead of other peoples, ie if you'd like something done to you, go ahead and do it to others whether they'd like it or not.
While the Athiest's rule puts any detrimental effect of your actions ahead of your own wishes.

2. Pretty much

3. Happens quite a lot, the slaughter of the Caananites, first born of Egypt, book of revelations - anyone not considered xian is to be killed.

@point 1 I disagree that there is a difference there. The message as I see it is treat people well because you would like them to treat you well . Its not kick them in the head cuz you dont mind one too

@point 3 I thought you were actually stating it against an individual . There has been none of that since the ransom was paid .You say you have experience of JW's so you know how I see the end of days. Everyone not in the Truth(which does include me) will die at armageddon but anyone who has already suffered death will get resurrected to do on Earth as it is in Heaven . Do you know the rest of the JW belief of the afterlife?

---------- Post added at 22:51 ---------- Previous post was at 22:48 ----------

Originally Posted by Xaccers

1. There's a subtle but important difference. The xian rule puts your own wishes ahead of other peoples, ie if you'd like something done to you, go ahead and do it to others whether they'd like it or not.
While the Athiest's rule puts any detrimental effect of your actions ahead of your own wishes.

2. Pretty much

3. Happens quite a lot, the slaughter of the Caananites, first born of Egypt, book of revelations - anyone not considered xian is to be killed.




You're patronising, although you don't mean to be, so I forgive you
Seriously though, it'd be like me saying "Drop-dead-fred, my imaginary friend, will help you if you ever feel low, that's how important and seriously I take your well being, I'm letting my imaginary friend be there for you" see what I mean?
No problem with people being religious, no problem with those of them who choose to worship dieties who are morally lacking (just wish they'd open their eyes and admit it), but do keep it to yourself where other people are concerned. Not too much to ask is it?

It's that golden rule again, yours lets you push your religious beliefs onto others, because you've not got a problem with a xian doing that to you.
Ours on the other hand says "woah big fella, it's a personal thing, help them as a person, don't go telling them they are wrong to believe, you made your choice, they made theirs, if they want to talk about it, let them ask"

How can someone who has true faith not think that their God loves you too? He wouldnt be a loving God if he didnt but how does me thinking my God loves you push anything onto you?

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by frogstamper

As a confirmed atheist myself its good to hear a prominent voice from the religious community encouraging respect for anyone outside of their own religion. The archbishop mentioning respect for atheist's puts me in mind of that quote George H Bush made, "atheist's are neither citizens or patriots", that's one thing I do prefer about our election system, religion on the whole is kept out of politics, where as in the US in some debates you'd think they were electing a vicar not a president.


http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/ghwbush.htm

The trouble I see in this and many other examples is a LO of atheists hear the opinion of one Chrostian and automatically believe it's shared by us all. Not so.

[frogstamper]

Just going off the point slightly, there was a great debate last year between the two Hitchen brothers mainly about religion and Christopher's new book "God isn't great", excellent book by the way, truly worth a watch.

[kirk1690]

Originally Posted by Cobbydaler

I'm not belittling believers, I just find it offensive that someone is telling me a hidden God is active in my life.

Believers don't necessarily hold the moral high ground...

I think believers should be able to stand up to some belittling for a few years after all atheists like myself have been persecuted ,tortured ,burned at the stake and more for 2000 years and now we are allowed to speak our minds without fear the faithists dont like it . God doesnt exist ,death is the end ,deal with it, but even though I think believers are all deranged and undemocratic meddlars always trying to impose their strange creeds on the rest of the population I wont be burning any of them...............................just yet !

[Cobbydaler]

Originally Posted by Russ B

There is no harm whatsoever in believing that our God is in the hearts of ALL men and women. Personally I don't undestand why those who do not (or cannot) share this belief take such offense at it. Islamics would have me believe Allah is god - I don't get offended. I believe them to be very wrong but patronising? I think that's just overdoing the 'persecuted atheist' bit.

Persecuted Agnostic...

Subtle difference

Perhaps you don't get offended because you are a believer & so understand their viewpoint?

I don't wish to have any faith tell me that I am being 'influenced' / 'controlled' by their God who is 'active in my life'...

If 'God being active in the hearts of ALL men & women' is a euphemism for all mankind being essentially good at heart then that is patently nonsense. There is a plethora of evil people in the world...

[zinglebarb]

I see a vicious circle here. Me thinking my God loves those who does not believe it appears to patronise those who not believe and those who do not believe wanting me not to think my loving God loves them is patronising to me and round and round we go lol

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

No problem with people being religious, no problem with those of them who choose to worship dieties who are morally lacking (just wish they'd open their eyes and admit it), but do keep it to yourself where other people are concerned. Not too much to ask is it?

Well...yes it is. You permit those with views on other subjects to speak their minds and air their views in public but when it comes to faith or religion, we're to keep it quiet. I'm sorry but the world doesn't work that way. If we live in a society with free speech then we cannot dictate what others talk about around us, regardless of how much we tire of hearing it. For example Arsenal supporters continue to bleat on about how good they think their side is despite evidence to the contrary. I don't want to hear it but I tolerate it.

Not too much to ask is it?

[zinglebarb]

Originally Posted by kirk1690

I think believers should be able to stand up to some belittling for a few years after all atheists like myself have been persecuted ,tortured ,burned at the stake and more for 2000 years and now we are allowed to speak our minds without fear the faithists dont like it . God doesnt exist ,death is the end ,deal with it, but even though I think believers are all deranged and undemocratic meddlars always trying to impose their strange creeds on the rest of the population I wont be burning any of them...............................just yet !

So your 2000 years old .been burned and torchured then? hope you went to the hostpital with that

we now see a very disrespectful post here much worse than what was in the OP

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by kirk1690

I think believers should be able to stand up to some belittling for a few years after all atheists like myself have been persecuted ,tortured ,burned at the stake and more for 2000 years and now we are allowed to speak our minds without fear the faithists dont like it .

Erm, just how long has it been since one of our lot burned someone you knew?

Originally Posted by Cobbydaler

Perhaps you don't get offended because you are a believer & so understand their viewpoint?

Not applicable I'm afraid - I've held that view since before I became a bible basher.

[zinglebarb]

Originally Posted by Cobbydaler

Persecuted Agnostic...

Subtle difference

Perhaps you don't get offended because you are a believer & so understand their viewpoint?

I don't wish to have any faith tell me that I am being 'influenced' / 'controlled' by their God who is 'active in my life'...

If 'God being active in the hearts of ALL men & women' is a euphemism for all mankind being essentially good at heart then that is patently nonsense. There is a plethora of evil people in the world...

but your quite happy being brainwashed by society to conform from birth to death without issue

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by zinglebarb