Christians told to treat atheists and agnostics with "deep esteem"

[frogstamper]

Originally Posted by zing

This thread has now gone down the realms of rediculasness

I think my last question is a valid one zing, I'm genuinely interested in hearing an answer.

[RizzyKing]

I have to be honest i am interested in an answer to froggies question so can we have one as xaccers appears to have left the building ???.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

I think God is a testing God, and there are cases where our prayers are not answered. I have prayed many a time for things and I'm still waiting for the 911 to appear on my front drive.

I sometimes do question the judgement of God when you look at wars, genocide, children dying of starvation in africa etc etc, but for me religion will always have tests of faith, it is how you overcome these questions that measures your belief and intentions (in my opinion). I think that it is this attitude to religion that some athiests fail to understand/get to grips with.

[RizzyKing]

So tens of thousands of people die as a test of faith thats what i love about religion all of them there are always little get outs for simple flaws in the premise.

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

I think God is a testing God, and there are cases where our prayers are not answered. I have prayed many a time for things and I'm still waiting for the 911 to appear on my front drive.

I sometimes do question the judgement of God when you look at wars, genocide, children dying of starvation in africa etc etc, but for me religion will always have tests of faith, it is how you overcome these questions that measures your belief and intentions (in my opinion). I think that it is this attitude to religion that some athiests fail to understand/get to grips with.

Very very good post. "Yes", "no" and "not yet" are all valid answers to prayer.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

So tens of thousands of people die as a test of faith thats what i love about religion all of them there are always little get outs for simple flaws in the premise.

Or could it be that athiests/non believers etc etc just try to justify everything thats not perfect by saying God doesnt exist because if he did everything would be ok?

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo

Or could it be that athiests/non believers etc etc just try to justify everything thats not perfect by saying God doesnt exist because if he did everything would be ok?

Wow, we could do with you on our side

Fancy a conversion??

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

I don't know what the history of posts are on this Forum but I have been here long enough to see that in the posts I have read, I havent seen anyone try and force religion onto those who dont believe it. But more often than not I have read things which not only mock the religion, but also imply 'followers' of being stupid as there are flaws to their judgement. We are not in a court of law, and I dont think anyone here has the capacity or intellect to prove or disprove 100% the existent of God. Can't we just look at the positives and similarities that both bring and stop the you're wrong Im right stuff.

[KaySquirrel]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

So tens of thousands of people die as a test of faith thats what i love about religion all of them there are always little get outs for simple flaws in the premise.

Alternatively, only tens of thousands of people died. I think it depends how you look at a situation. Things can always be better. But they could always be worse, instead.
-----

The man said 'treat them with deep esteem', not 'Burn them, stone them and mess with their stereos!'. There might be less hysteria if he'd gone with the latter, though.

[Saaf_laandon_mo]

Originally Posted by Russ B

Wow, we could do with you on our side

Fancy a conversion??

Do I get a porsche?

[RizzyKing]

No not at all but when people say ah it was a test of faith i mean thats saying nothing at all how many tests of faith would any of the gods like how many people have to die to test faith????. You can't have it all ways you can't talk about all powerful omnipotent beings that somehow influence our lives and are a positive force in those lives then talk about same gods allowing tens of thousands of people to die to test a faith. Those people died because bad things happen and thats it there is nothing out there that decides to allow this disaster but oh i will stop that one. If such a being existed that did act that way why would i want to worship it why would i want to pray to something so cold blooded that it could oversee such pain and suffering and do nothing about it when it has the power too. Thats my problem with all religions i am expected to believe in something that is happy to be a voyeur to pain and suffering if it was a person we all know what we would think of them.

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by KaySquirrel

The man said 'treat them with deep esteem', not 'Burn them, stone them and mess with their stereos!'. There might be less hysteria if he'd gone with the latter, though.

Already tried them with that one - apparently it makes no difference.

Originally Posted by Saaf_london_mo

Do I get a porsche?

We could probably extend to that after all, everyone knows churches are loaded don't they...

---------- Post added at 15:27 ---------- Previous post was at 15:24 ----------

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

No not at all but when people say ah it was a test of faith i mean thats saying nothing at all how many tests of faith would any of the gods like how many people have to die to test faith????. You can't have it all ways you can't talk about all powerful omnipotent beings that somehow influence our lives and are a positive force in those lives then talk about same gods allowing tens of thousands of people to die to test a faith. Those people died because bad things happen and thats it there is nothing out there that decides to allow this disaster but oh i will stop that one. If such a being existed that did act that way why would i want to worship it why would i want to pray to something so cold blooded that it could oversee such pain and suffering and do nothing about it when it has the power too. Thats my problem with all religions i am expected to believe in something that is happy to be a voyeur to pain and suffering if it was a person we all know what we would think of them.

Try this, from gotquestions.org....

Answer: Is God fair? That depends entirely on your definition of the word fair. If by fair, you mean God treats everyone the same, then no, God is not fair. We often have the mindset that unless everyone is treated equally, it is not fair. Parents with two children must give equal amounts of presents, spend equal amounts of time, etc., etc. – all in attempts to be fair. God does not deal with humanity in this way. God is good, gracious, loving, forgiving – but He is also just, righteous, and holy. We have all sinned against God (Romans 3:23) and are therefore worthy of eternal death (Romans 6:23). If we all received what we deserve, we would all end up in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15). God is good, so He sent Jesus Christ to die on the cross in our place, taking the punishment that we deserve (2 Corinthians 5:21). All we have to do is believe in Him and we will be saved, forgiven, and promised an eternal home in heaven (John 3:16).

However, despite God’s loving grace, no one would believe in Him on their own (Romans 3:10-18). God has to draw us to Him in order for us to believe (John 6:44). God does not draw everyone, but only certain people He has sovereignly chosen (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5,11). This is not “fair” since God is not treating all people equally. However, God does not have to choose anyone. Those whom God has chosen are receiving God’s love and grace. Those whom God has not chosen are receiving what they truly deserve. So, in this sense, God is being fair. Those who reject Him receive the punishment they deserve (John 3:18,36). Those who believe are receiving far more. No one, though, is being punished beyond what they deserve. So, this is fair. I invite you to read the parable found in Matthew chapter 20, verses 1-16. In our minds, that is not fair. It is an example, though, of God being gracious to some and fair to everyone.

[frogstamper]

With all due respect I'm just hearing the same old religious fall back, "you have to have faith", which to me translates into blind obedience. 6,000,000 Jews, supposedly gods chosen, millions of Africans starving in famines, I'm sorry but their faith didn't save them when they needed it.

[Nugget]

Originally Posted by frogstamper

With all due respect I'm just hearing the same old religious fall back, "you have to have faith", which to me translates into blind obedience. 6,000,000 Jews, supposedly gods chosen, millions of Africans starving in famines, I'm sorry but their faith didn't save them when they needed it.

You're right but, in fairness, Hitler was fairly obstinate...

[RizzyKing]

Again a lot of words saying basically nothing there isn't an explanation in that Russ it covers religions backside all ways without giving a single thing. I know the old "you have to take it on faith" trouble is people don't and increasingly they are not and thats the problem. Religion is not setup to answer any real questions and that is why certain religions now but all eventually are losing members people are not happy to go along on faith as much as they once were.

I am not campaigning for the end of religion but if it wants to survive trotting out scripture is not going to cut it and it better come uip with better answers then it has been giving people to explain some basic questions that more and more people are asking.