Christians told to treat atheists and agnostics with "deep esteem" - Page 13

**Russ B** · 09-05-2008, 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaccers

He believes that prayer brings benefit, most religious people I know also believe this, otherwise, why bother praying if it adds nothing.
That view is something experience has shown to be shared amongst many xians.
The view that people die because they weren't prayed for is also shared amongst many xians.

Now, would you be so kind as to answer my question?

I will once you answer mine. I asked do you judge all of us on this man's actions. A simple yes or no will do.

I asked if you think all Christians share his view. Again yes or no will do. I'm not trying to catch you out, I just want to know how you think.

frogstamper · 09-05-2008, 14:39

As we are talking of prayer, has anybody seen this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1844076.stm

Russ as far as I can see Xaccers has tried to answer your question, wouldnt it be fair if you now answered his?

**Russ B** · 09-05-2008, 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by frogstamper

As we are talking of prayer, has anybody seen this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1844076.stm

Russ as far as I can see Xaccers has tried to answer your question, wouldnt it be fair if you now answered his?

I'm none the wiser as to whether he thinks we all believe what that guy said and whether he judges all Christians on that man's actions.

Xaccers · 09-05-2008, 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ B

I'm none the wiser as to whether he thinks we all believe what that guy said and whether he judges all Christians on that man's actions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaccers

He believes that prayer brings benefit, most religious people I know also believe this, otherwise, why bother praying if it adds nothing.
That view is something experience has shown to be shared amongst many xians.
The view that people die because they weren't prayed for is also shared amongst many xians.

Are you going to stop playing games and answer my question now Russ, or do you need me to quote the definition of "many" for you?

**Russ B** · 09-05-2008, 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Are you going to stop playing games and answer my question now Russ, or do you need me to quote the definition of "many" for you?

Settle down Xac or you'll bust a blood vessel.

Ok, so you do not think all Christians share that man's view? Good. I'm glad you're starting to see sense. I'm also glad you do not judge us all on his actions.

Lack of prayer brings no benefit? I can go along with that to an extent however just because that person did not have prayer is not neccessarily the reason they died. At the same token I do not neccessarily believe that all prayers will be answered favourably.

frogstamper · 09-05-2008, 14:55

OK then my question is this, if people of faith believe in the power of prayer it follows that their god intervenes in our lives, if this is so, and people claim he has cured their cancer or other debilitating illnesses, why does he not intervene in more substantial catastrophe's like wars or genocide?, which presumably many more people are praying for salvation against.

I don't ask this to make any sort of cheap point, I'm genuinely interested.

Xaccers · 09-05-2008, 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ B

Lack of prayer brings no benefit? I can go along with that to an extent however just because that person did not have prayer is not neccessarily the reason they died. At the same token I do not neccessarily believe that all prayers will be answered favourably.

Do you agree that it could be the reason why some people have died, that because no one prayed, they were not brought back to health?

**Russ B** · 09-05-2008, 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by frogstamper

OK then my question is this, if people of faith believe in the power of prayer it follows that their god intervenes in our lives, if this is so, and people claim he has cured their cancer or other debilitating illnesses, why does he not intervene in more substantial catastrophe's like wars or genocide?, which presumably many more people are praying for.

Perhaps He already has and you haven't seen it? How many potential wars have been called off due to intervention? Just because it didn't come from a finger pointing from a massive thundercloud does not mean the intervention was not of God.

---------- Post added at 14:59 ---------- Previous post was at 14:58 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Do you agree that it could be the reason why some people have died, that because no one prayed, they were not brought back to health?

In some instances that may be the case. Do you think God is fair?

Xaccers · 09-05-2008, 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ B

In some instances that may be the case.

And that is what I take issue with and find immoral. Not the action of a loving god, to only respond in those circumstances if someone prays.
Now we're not talking about those who he "chooses their time to go" we're talking about people who died but would have lived if only someone had asked their deity to take action it otherwise wouldn't have taken.

RizzyKing · 09-05-2008, 15:03

I have unfortunately been in situations where i have seen people praying to whatever they believe to come and save their life shortly before it was ended unjustly and i have never seen an intervention. All people should believe in what makes them happy but keep it to yourself and don't try to make others believe something that actually other then some belief does nothing physical or practical. If you think prayer will help someone fine do it whats the harm but no one can say pray really does anything at all other then maybe give some sentimental comfort for certain people.

**Russ B** · 09-05-2008, 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaccers

And that is what I take issue with and find immoral. Not the action of a loving god, to only respond in those circumstances if someone prays.
Now we're not talking about those who he "chooses their time to go" we're talking about people who died but would have lived if only someone had asked their deity to take action it otherwise wouldn't have taken.

In an ideal world you might have a point.

But this is not an ideal world. In any case I've answered why this happens on many occasions in the past.

frogstamper · 09-05-2008, 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

Perhaps He already has and you haven't seen it? How many potential wars have been called off due to intervention? Just because it didn't come from a finger pointing from a massive thundercloud does not mean the intervention was not of God.

As you say Russ perhaps he has, but that analogy could be used in the same way for Xaccers mate drop dead fred in that if I prayed to him I could claim a similar outcome. For arguments sake say god has prevented some sort of catastrophe like a war or famine, what would be the reason he wouldn't have intervened in the Rwandan genocide or the Holocaust, especially as the Jewish people are gods "chosen".

**David F** · 09-05-2008, 15:08

This thread has now gone down the realms of rediculasness

**Russ B** · 09-05-2008, 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by frogstamper

As you say Russ perhaps he has, but that analogy could be used in the same way for Xaccers mate drop dead fred in that if I prayed to him I could claim a similar outcome. For arguments sake say god has prevented some sort of catastrophe like a war or famine, what would be the reason he wouldn't have intervened in the Rwandan genocide or the Holocaust, especially as the Jewish people are gods "chosen".

Xaccers will know the answer to this as he has read up a lot on the bible he appears to despise (plus I've pointed it out loads of times before). There is a biblical reason why such things as Rwanda happen, I'll see if he can remember it.

RizzyKing · 09-05-2008, 15:10

No it hasn't zingle it has opened into a more broad discussion which all members have contributed to happening so it should continue.