Christians told to treat atheists and agnostics with "deep esteem" - Page 10

**David F** · 09-05-2008, 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by joker

A very interesting thread. However, I see cannot see the point in arguing about beliefs. I myself, do not rule out the the existence of god. I'm not a fond believer of religion - so i guess that makes me more of a theist.

I consider myself an understanding person, and can understand why some none-believers / agnostics may find it patronizing to be told 'god is with you' or lines of a similar nature.

It does not mean that you have to take the words in a literal sense, but more understand the meaning of it. If someone was to speak such words to you, then you know they are only trying to comfort you in the best way they know how. I would find someone who takes aggression to this somewhat ignorant. - You do not have to be a believer to place yourself in someone else's shoes. It is fair to say that this could work both ways, however not every believer will act in such a stereotypical manner.

Opposites fail to attract. In this instance you will only ever agree to disagree.

Please note an agnostic accepts that religious faiths etc are unknown as to be truths or not they do not totally dismiss it. Atheists totally disbelieve that there is anything in it. That makes you an Agnostic

RizzyKing · 09-05-2008, 08:20

Well i have read this thread and though i am not sure it is how i should have responded i have had a damn good laugh while reading it. Honestly "theological debate" no such thing sorry you have two diametrically opposed sides both trying to convince each other of the merits of their ideas it is called banging your head on a wall to most of us. So some arch bishop with nothing better to do with his time makes a patronising and condescending remark and this has managed to get so many people heated how exactly ??. If you are a person of faith good luck to you i hope it brings you something good, if your an atheist read his comment and walk on at most have a little chuckle and walk on because being honest who really cares what he says.

Xaccers please no more mention of those with faith abusing their children by encouraging them to follow faith thats a bit extreme and uncalled for. Personally when my kids ask me about anything religion based i tell them "faith is a personal choice and something for you to discover oneway or the other for yourself" i am an atheist but it doesn't mean i have the right to inflict my view on my kids and i don't. Do i have respect for people with faith yes i do in the sameway i have respect for anyone to believe in whatever they want as long as it doesn't negatively impact on others.

Trouble with this debate is each side has to paint the other as being "wrong" in someway and both sides fail to grasp the fact there is no right or wrong in this there is personal choice. Believe or don't believe makes little difference a good person will still be good either way and same for a bad person so can we just call it evens and move onto more constructive things.

**David F** · 09-05-2008, 08:31

I think all ive done really in this thread is try to say pretty much what you have? I do not expect ot try to convert anybody ive just said I do not think its a big deal and not owrthy of any upset at all

---------- Post added at 08:31 ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enuff

Just look at the state the world's in today, How can there be a God? There's more evidence for there being evil at work - Satan.

The sad news is, we're owned by the system. No? Then try breaking away from it, If you are a true Christian, follow your faith to the book. You can't be a Christian and work with the devil at the same time. No wonder the worlds in such a mess.

Jesus indicated that those who practiced hypocrisy would be sent to hell.

There is no hell in the bible. What you have said there about the system is ironically pretty much what the JW's teach. Jesus paid the taxes at the temple in Jerusalem just like christians have to now. The evil in the world now mostly comes from mans free will

**Russ B** · 09-05-2008, 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Trouble with this debate is each side has to paint the other as being "wrong" in someway and both sides fail to grasp the fact there is no right or wrong in this there is personal choice.

I disagree with the first part of that but agree with the second. I'm not trying to say any particular belief is 'wrong' - I would not be so rude and arrogant to be that blatant. Disagreement is fine as long as it is with respect. That is what is usually missing in these threads.

I don't see how you can say the archbishop's comment of treating those with opposeing views with 'deep esteem' is arrogant. Had he said believers should treat you with suspicion then I'm sure you'd waste no time in calling him intolerant.

Damed if he does, damned if he doesn't. This IMO is the issue that many non-believers have, they want to have a dig at those with different views no matter what they say. Totally unfair and shows some discussions will never be on an uneven playing field.

Angua · 09-05-2008, 08:43

And the biggest irony is that whilst church attendance is dropping off more parents are jumping through hoops to get their children in to faith schools

**Graham M** · 09-05-2008, 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angua

...to get their children in to faith schools

Well the all-round education is apparently nearly always better, I went to a Catholic/CofE school myself and my speelling is jest fyne.

**Maggy J** · 09-05-2008, 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Well i have read this thread and though i am not sure it is how i should have responded i have had a damn good laugh while reading it. Honestly "theological debate" no such thing sorry you have two diametrically opposed sides both trying to convince each other of the merits of their ideas it is called banging your head on a wall to most of us. So some arch bishop with nothing better to do with his time makes a patronising and condescending remark and this has managed to get so many people heated how exactly ??. If you are a person of faith good luck to you i hope it brings you something good, if your an atheist read his comment and walk on at most have a little chuckle and walk on because being honest who really cares what he says.

Xaccers please no more mention of those with faith abusing their children by encouraging them to follow faith thats a bit extreme and uncalled for. Personally when my kids ask me about anything religion based i tell them "faith is a personal choice and something for you to discover oneway or the other for yourself" i am an atheist but it doesn't mean i have the right to inflict my view on my kids and i don't. Do i have respect for people with faith yes i do in the sameway i have respect for anyone to believe in whatever they want as long as it doesn't negatively impact on others.

Trouble with this debate is each side has to paint the other as being "wrong" in someway and both sides fail to grasp the fact there is no right or wrong in this there is personal choice. Believe or don't believe makes little difference a good person will still be good either way and same for a bad person so can we just call it evens and move onto more constructive things.

peanutkp · 09-05-2008, 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Xaccers please no more mention of those with faith abusing their children by encouraging them to follow faith thats a bit extreme and uncalled for. Personally when my kids ask me about anything religion based i tell them "faith is a personal choice and something for you to discover oneway or the other for yourself" i am an atheist but it doesn't mean i have the right to inflict my view on my kids and i don't. Do i have respect for people with faith yes i do in the sameway i have respect for anyone to believe in whatever they want as long as it doesn't negatively impact on others.

So is it against the rights of the kids that are brought up within a religious family that don't have a choice, as they are basically born into it.

Maybe it's questions like that, athiests can't get their head around and come to the conclusion that it could be wrong, so when asking those types of questions its the athiests that gets the flak.

RizzyKing · 09-05-2008, 10:23

Russ he is arrogant as the man is saying have deep respect and then totally ignores what it is to be atheist by saying "I want to encourage people of faith to regard those without faith with deep esteem because the hidden God is active in their lives as well as in the lives of those who believe" no god is active in my life as i am atheist and there is no god thats my belief for him to say his belief is active in my life means he is not accepting or respecting my view. I respect his right to his views but he does not have the right to tell people that have their reasons for not having faith in religion that regardless god is in their lives that is complete arrogance.

Peanut i was born into a family of religious faith and as i got older i made my own decision and thats how it should be i would hope that if\when Russ or any believer is asked they also have the security in their personal belief not to influence anyone and encourage them to find their own personal truth for themself. Individual people must make an individual choice in matters of faith and religion because if they don't then the faith and the religion as a whole suffer and mean less.

Nugget · 09-05-2008, 10:25

Just out of curiosity, why is it such an issue that the Archbishop has come out and said (to paraphrase) treat everyone, regardless of their faith or lack of, with respect?

Surely, as a result of his religion, he is fully entitled to believe that God acts for / through everyone, be they religious, agnostic, atheist or, for that matter, followers of another religion? As an atheist myself, I may not agree with what he's sayiong about God, but I defend his right to come out and say it.

To be honest, even I'm getting a little bored of the slating that people like Russ and zing receive on here, just because they have a faith. So what? It doesn't impact on any of us. Moreover, if Russ decides to bring his daughter up under the tenets of his religion (just like saaf laandon's bringing his daughter up under Islam), what's it got to do with the rest of us? When the kids get older, they may choose not to follow these faiths - my parents and grandparents were both church members, and we went to church every week while I was a kid but, as I've got older, I've come to the personal belief that there is no God. I don't feel that I was 'abused' as a child because of it

Realistically, we live in a free society where people are free to believe, or free not to believe - if you don't agree with someone following a religion, then just don't bother trying to 'convert' them, and if you don't agree with people who don't believe, try and give them the same courtesy. It's actually easier than fighting about it...

**Maggy J** · 09-05-2008, 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by peanutkp

So is it against the rights of the kids that are brought up within a religious family that don't have a choice, as they are basically born into it.

Maybe it's questions like that, athiests can't get their head around and come to the conclusion that it could be wrong, so when asking those types of questions its the athiests that gets the flak.

Many,many children step away from any religious upbringing during their teen years.

Of course that's normal healthy families within a normal healthy church.

Where it becomes problematic is within cults and then of course sadly the state cannot step in unless physical and sexual abuse has taken place and is proven.

**Russ B** · 09-05-2008, 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Russ he is arrogant as the man is saying have deep respect and then totally ignores what it is to be atheist by saying "I want to encourage people of faith to regard those without faith with deep esteem because the hidden God is active in their lives as well as in the lives of those who believe"

You're missing the point - he's not saying that to you, he's saying it to us! What he says to us about God being in your life is not harmful in this instance. It makes no impact on your life at all other than having Christians treating you with esteem.

RizzyKing · 09-05-2008, 10:38

He should have just left that part out Russ and then his real message might have got across a little easier i do think he included that bit to appease the more zealous believer's in his flock but end of the day this debate has no ending and has no right or wrong and we can grow old arguing it and never get anywhere lol.

**Russ B** · 09-05-2008, 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

He should have just left that part out Russ and then his real message might have got across a little easier i do think he included that bit to appease the more zealous believer's in his flock but end of the day this debate has no ending and has no right or wrong and we can grow old arguing it and never get anywhere lol.

I totally fail to see your point. He is not saying 'be nice to atheists, then when their guard is down try to convert them', he is simply saying 'be nice to them'.

Where is the problem in that?

nitroz · 09-05-2008, 11:00

I guess I can not be classed as an atheist as I know God doesnt exsist, not just believe it. Just becuase there is zero proof of something does not mean it can not exsist, granted but I really have a hard time understanding why still so many educated people insist on it.

As an example take the most devote person from all religions who will defy to the death that theres is the only true religion, now travel back and swap them all at birth, and it can be assumed that each of there relgions has changed and would denouce everything they currently hold true.

That said I understand the need for religion, to live with the fact that life has no true purpose and ends when you die is somewhat depressing but at least i can say i did it my way.