BA Flight lands short of Runway

[Delta Whiskey]

News 24 are reporting a Heathrow worker who says he talked to the captain, he says the captain told him he lost all power & avionics just as he was landing.

[Osem]

There's specualtion in our local pub that someone was trying to attack the PM

[BBKing]

News 24 are reporting a Heathrow worker who says he talked to the captain, he says the captain told him he lost all power & avionics just as he was landing.

Pinch of salt time - other witnesses have said they heard engine noise and there was no indication anything was wrong on board before it hit.

Strange, planes can land themselves nowadays.

Yes, but usually they don't, often to keep the pilots well trained during good weather conditions for the times, like today, when things are a bit gusty and they need to land it manually.

Uncle Peter has it right, it looks like exactly what you expect of a short-duration downwards microburst, particularly given the weather in the area. It's either heavy wind and rain or hail out there right now, black as pitch. Thunder and lightning, too.

[handyman]

I'm sure the black box and the interviews with the pilots will be able to shed some light on this and provide a clearer picture.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by handyman

I'm sure the black box and the interviews with the pilots will be able to shed some light on this and provide a clearer picture.

"Hey Jeff, what's this lever marked 'air brake' do?"

My money's with BBKing, with the gusty wind out there, a sudden downward blast as they flew into the wind could have made them drop considerably.

First time I few to Sharm El Sheikh (SSH) where the runway is parallel to the coast (yes, loads of cross winds from that!) a gust caught us and we banked so far the tip of the right wing got way closer to the ground than I would have liked!
How the pilot uprighted us so quickly without over compensating I don't know, unless he was particularly good, or it was the computer (was a JMC flight)

[Uncle Peter]

The current METAR for Heathrow includes a cumulonimbus warning which is a warning sign for wind shear/sudden updraft or downdraft currents. The other nasty thing that can happen of course is that a sudden headwind can temporarily reduce the airspeed of the aircraft which can be bad news on finals.

[Xaccers]

Wouldn't a headwind increase the airspeed of the plane?
Sure it would decrease the groundspeed, but air would be travelling past the plane faster.

[fireman328]

From the brief shot on BBC news I saw, the plane had dropped suddenly during the last moments of landing and hit the grass some way short of the runway. I am sure there were a few brown trousers but it was a real miracle that all survived and walked away to tell their stories.

[BBKing]

Wouldn't a headwind increase the airspeed of the plane?

Yes. What happens in a microburst is that the plane flies into a headwind caused by the downdraft spreading out in all directions, which increases its airspeed. The pilot (if he's not pre-warned by ground radar) reduces power to maintain airspeed, then flies through the middle and out the other side into a tailwind area, whereupon he suddenly finds himself short of airspeed, lift and thrust and has a close encounter with the ground (fitting with the witness accounts of a sudden drop). They're very nasty things, microbursts, caused a lot of crashes in the US, where weather is more severe.

"Hey Jeff, what's this lever marked 'air brake' do?"

Very nasty Air Canada DC-8 crash back in the day caused by just that - co-pilot pulled the air brakes out, dropped the plane onto the runway, broke an engine off, captain put on power and tried to go around but the fuel escaping from the wing caused an explosion and that was the end of that.

---------- Post added at 17:04 ---------- Previous post was at 17:01 ----------

it was a real miracle that all survived and walked away to tell their stories.

It was lucky it didn't happen 100ft or so further back, where the last approach light gantry is. We drove down to Heathrow T4 to collect some foreign cash two weeks ago and I remember pointing at the planes going just over the car into 27L to my son, who likes planes - they virtually seem to fly along parallel to you and then scream right over the roof. The consequences of a 777 coming down on the A30 or ripping through the lighting gantries would have been substantially less pleasant than what transpired.

[Uncle Peter]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Wouldn't a headwind increase the airspeed of the plane?
Sure it would decrease the groundspeed, but air would be travelling past the plane faster.

Sorry yes as BBKing says the net effect is that the airspeed of the plane will drop once the event has occurred. If the aircraft is on autothrottle then it'll be the machinery itself getting it into a pickle.

[Halcyon]

I'm glad that everyone is safe.
I always find that the Pilots rumour network is a good place to find out more, especially from pilots who post there too.

See here:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/index.php

Though it seems to be pretty busy there at the moment.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

First time I few to Sharm El Sheikh (SSH) where the runway is parallel to the coast (yes, loads of cross winds from that!) a gust caught us and we banked so far the tip of the right wing got way closer to the ground than I would have liked!

Yep, I too am not convinced about Sharm. Once landed in an older style 747 that hit the runway so hard the oxygen masks dropped down

No doubt this Heathrow incident will be the subject of a thorough investigation by the media and in due course well get their version of the facts. The proper investigation will take some time. Air travel, in terms of passengers per mile is ultimately quite safe, but any incident attracts headlines and concern that we never see over road accidents which are seen as an inevitable fact of life.

It's good to know that this time, the consequences weren't serious.

[BBKing]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/index.php

My first port of call at about 1pm today and I've not been able to get on then or since.

[Hom3r]

I had just open the internet at work, my home page is the BBC, as the story broke, read about it.

went to the $ky news site their head was PMs plane delayed due to incident at Heathrow. I'm mean how give a rats about that a plane has just crashed, which is by far more important. ($ky can keep sky news, I don't want it back on VM now).

Looking at the damage and the fact the gear appears to have gone through the wing, (and the gear is fixed to a major structual part of the plane), I'm amazed that the plane didn't split up. I guess the sodden ground helped.


Top marks to the crew for getting everybody off safely.

Any forth come rewards are 110% deserved



---------- Post added at 20:59 ---------- Previous post was at 20:34 ----------

As you may now I work for an airline, and I was talking to some aircraft engineers at work as the details where coming in.

First impressions where pilot error, as most planes auto land, and perhaps the pilot wanted to land himself and cocked up.

Then when it was reported that he lost all power, this would have implied that the engines stopped, fuel would be unlike as both engines are indepentley feed, so to have two engines run out of gas at the same time is very unlikely. This could also possibly explain why the plane fell out of the sky as quick as it did.

A believe that it is standard practice to pour foam on "gear up" landings, and the foam would cover and fuel or hydraulic that would more than likely have been spilled.

This is the first 777 that has been in a major crash, not bas for a plane thats 13 years old this year.

Details of the crash, and report will be here

[Arthurgray50@blu]

I drove past the accident, five minutes after it happened, and it scared the pants of me, as l also live under the flight path into Heathrow, l work around the airport every day, and l always think about this, as if people know the airport, the end of the runway is very near the A30, and the incident could have been tragic, but the crew of this flight must be congratulated, by everyone, not just BA, and these are the people who don't often get recognised, so well done to them.