Integrated transport chaos

All along the way it would seem that between the government and transport operators they are doing their best to completely screw up this country.

First we have the government pricing us all off the road: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4610877.stm

And now the rail operators want to price us off the trains too!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4112360.stm

Rail passengers could face congestion charge-style price hikes at rush hour to combat rising passenger numbers.

Either the rail companies are completely off their heads, or they are seeing a good opportunity to profiteer from the whole mess.

Personally, I have always thought that a much simpler way to ease congestion would be to legislate/encourage business to get off the need for everyone to be on the same 9-5 schedule. That's why we have congestion.

Whether it's road or rail, if we try to move the entire working population around twice a day in the same 1 hour window it's bound to be congested. Open that window wider and congestion could be cut considerably.

Or maybe that's too simple a solution...

[Paul]

Sounds like rail companies looking to increase profits while not improving their service to me. What is the point of everyone being told to use public transport where possible if the rail companies are going to charge people extra for doing so? Rail companies should be improving their service and capacity instead of penalising people that are willing to use public transport instead of cars.

[Rob]

Everyone is missing the point here.

We have to work. It's the way our economy operates. It's how we support ourselves. Road congestion charging, train congestion charging doesn't and cannot address that fundamental.

Unless we are to revert to a backwards inward looking local communities (which goes against the grain of human nature trying to better itself), subscribe to rapid population reduction and other impossible measures, we will always need transport and at some point we have to invest to increase capacity. Arguably that capacity must be on mass transport as private cars are less efficient.

Originally Posted by MovedGoalPosts

Everyone is missing the point here.

I don't think so...

Originally Posted by MovedGoalPosts

We have to work. It's the way our economy operates. It's how we support ourselves. Road congestion charging, train congestion charging doesn't and cannot address that fundamental.

No-one is saying we shouldn't work. But do we ALL have to work 9-5? What's so magical about 9am as a starting time?

The congestion charges seem more like they are designed to profit from the fact that so many people need to travel at peak (i.e. congested) times over congested routes.

[Ramrod]

This is todays Times headline story............made my blood boil
It's not like most have a choice, they have to get to work so they tax cars/roads to get us to switch to public transport, then they tax that saying that they have to because too many of us are using it! Morons!

[Chimaera]

The Government will be taxing the air we breathe next...........

[Stuart C]

This is stupid. They were saying this morning that rush hour trains are overcrowded. This is fair enough.

They were also saying they should charge more for peak trains. Also fair enough, but they already do this (try getting a discounted ticket before 9:30).

Now, the last part. They are talking about reducing off peak trains to ease the burden on the network. As I understand it, the problem (in London anyway) is that the network is at capacity. The only way to cure this would be to redesign the signalling system to allow more trains (maybe using the "rolling block" system used by the French, and on the DLR and Jubilee Line extension here). I really don't see how reducing off peak trains would cure the problems at peak times.

Of course, it would enable the rail companies to maximise profits.

[AndrewJ]

Do what some people are doing here, they buy a mini-bus together which seats about 16, and then everyone pays into it and they use that for work.

Works out cheaper and tends to be on time.

[Chris]

Absolutely flipping mental. The Government is busy taxing us off the road as an incentive to use public transport, and the train companies are now starting to talk about pricing us off the trains (although I thought they had already done that in most cases). This country is being run by morons.

Great !!! It costs me 2k a year to comute to work as it is !!!

Flipin great...... Now its going to cost me more

What next ? No wonder everyone wants to leave this country ! Can someone please confirm that this is suposed to be a democratic country and not a comunist military area !!

[homealone]

Originally Posted by Chris T

Absolutely flipping mental. The Government is busy taxing us off the road as an incentive to use public transport, and the train companies are now starting to talk about pricing us off the trains (although I thought they had already done that in most cases). This country is being run by morons.

thing is, is it really 'public' transport when privately owned - and receiving more subsidy than British Rail ever did.

- rather than being run by morons, the country is run by venture capitalists, who don't give a damn about anything but their next bonus....

Originally Posted by homealone

thing is, is it really 'public' transport when privately owned - and receiving more subsidy than British Rail ever did.

- rather than being run by morons, the country is run by venture capitalists, who don't give a damn about anything but their next bonus....

Very well said !!!

[BBKing]

comunist military area !!

As homealone said, the rail companies who are (allegedly) proposing this are private companies run, in the main, by venture capitalists and bus companies. ATOC is in fact a private cartel.

Since it's impossible to have true competition on the railways (for all sorts of reasons) the main effect of privatisation is to replace a public monopoly with a private one - which of course is worse as there is absolutely nothing you can do about it if they decide to raise prices*

Since public subsidy to the rail companies is 6.4bn a year now compared to about 2bn if the pre-1993 railway had continued it's easy to see where the money's going, and it isn't into providing more tracks, more capacity (the signalling point is a good one) and longer trains, which is the real solution to congestion. Any other business on seeing a growth in its market would be desperate to meet it because of competition - since no competition is possible the response is the one that costs the company least, which is to price people off the trains until capacity = demand.

Under the current system if you wanted to increase the length of your trains you'd have to do something like this:

Negotiate with your rolling stock supplier (run by banks to maximise return on investment) for new trains compatible with your existing ones, for which, since no one's building them because the factory went bust after privatisation, you'll pay a premium (£££).
Negotiate with Network Rail for more power supplies (£££), revised track access charges and lengthening platforms (££££££)
Negotiate with HSE to ensure that the lengthened platforms meet all the daft requirements on curvature, gradient and height that existing platforms don't have to meet (£££)
Pay consultants to do all the paperwork for acceptance by NR and HSE (£££)
Negotiate with other operators on your line who have no interest in you running more trains to ensure they aren't inconvenienced (longer trains take longer to cross junctions).
Possibly pay NR for infrastructure works to minimize this inconvenience.

and finally

Negotiate with the DfT, who now say who can do what on the railways and who'll say no if the Treasury objects, which they will when they see the bill.

etc. etc.

It's a lot easier in an integrated system.

* Unless you're very lucky and can travel on one of the few routes with true competition, like London-Birmingham.

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by Saxodriver

Do what some people are doing here, they buy a mini-bus together which seats about 16, and then everyone pays into it and they use that for work.

Works out cheaper and tends to be on time.

But I don't live near 16 other people that work in the same office as me. And it's besides the point. They put a congestion charge on the roads to make people use public transport. Now they're adding a congestion charge to one of the forms of public transport they originally encouraged people to use????

I'd like to thank John Prescot for all the hard work he has done in this area.