Florida girl's abortion allowed

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by Paul

One day? With all the "new" superbugs, diseases, disorders already out there I think we are already seeing the "rewards" of mankinds tampering

And does anyone learn?

Originally Posted by orangebird

You can only 'play god' if you believe in him.

Don't worry, I took in to account your anti-religious feelings (and I spotted the change from upper case to lower case - you really didn't need to do that!) by placing that expression in inverted commas. It's a figure of speech, I'm not expecting you to go along with my beliefs but feel free to replace the word 'God' with 'mother nature' or whatever ideal you subscribe to.

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by Russ D

And does anyone learn?



Don't worry, I took in to account your anti-religious feelings (and I spotted the change from upper case to lower case - you really didn't need to do that!) <snip>o.

Eh??? Firstly, it wasn't a concious thought to type god in lower case, and secondly, I never changed or edited my post at all!

[Chris]

Originally Posted by scastle

I'm not suggesting eugenics, no.

I do believe that a mother has the right to decide to abort her pregnancy if the baby is likely to suffer a life of hardship though. Such abortion should only be done after proper counselling though.

It is absolutely absurd to me that it should be legal for anybody to make that determination on behalf of a child, simply because that child has not been born yet. If you killed a six-month-old on the basis that s/he was likely to suffer a life of hardship, you would rightly be banged up in jail for murder.

As OB says, there is no shortage of children waiting to be adopted. I am not sure what the problem is there.

The problem for me is principally one of children being killed because they are 'not wanted', as if they are accessories that can be acquired or discarded at will. But on the issue of adoption, we have a problem in the UK in that social services is ideologically in favour of fostering rather than adoption. I accept there are lots of kids in care homes in this country, but isn't it odd how many people still go looking to adopt abroad?

I am not talking about a mother who aborts because it will inconveniance her (I really cannot understand women who abort because of minor reasons, like it's not the right time). I am talking about women whom would suffer massive problems if asked to give birth. I'll admit, in the long term, adoption is an alternative.

Well, we agree on something then ... to a point. I am still very worried by the definition of 'massive problems' though. This is more or less the definition currently allowed in British law, and it is abused every day of the week in this country. The only time I could ever personally countenance an abortion is in circumstances where being pregnant would kill the mother, and therefore the unborn child also.

BTW, my only experience of abortion is one of my friends aborted her baby. Her reason being that she lived with her jobless boyfriend (who was on the maximum benefit to which he was entitled), and it have meant her going on benefits as well (I think - she was on a 1 year contract, so I don't think maternity leave was an option). For various reasons (which I cannot go into here), neither of them had any family around to support them. To put it bluntly, she could not afford to have the baby, so she aborted it. I can assure you, she did not take this decision lightly, and STILL regrets doing it.

All of which helps give the lie to the idea that all that is happening is the 'termination of a foetus'. Every pregnant woman I have met knows deep down that there is a new life inside them right from the start. The only way to escape the regret that follows abortion is to convince onesself that this is not the case. The use of impersonal, medical terminology like 'termination' and 'foetus' is very useful in that respect, but ultimately it often doesn't work, as would seem to be the case with your friend. It speaks volumes to me that she still regrets it, even after thinking it through and deciding it was the 'right' thing to do.

As I am sure you have found, Chris, bringing a baby into the world is quite expensive (especially so if you have no family around you - which the girl in the article does not),

I have indeed found ... and we are about to find so again. Mrs T is 35 weeks pregnant and we will be a family of four, all being well, at the beginning of June. Hence the strength of my feeling on this issue. She has been able to feel our baby moving about since 15 weeks, almost two months ahead of the date when an abortion would still have been legal.

Apart from anything else, I don't think the average 13y/o is ready for that kind of responsibility.

You're right, no 13-year-old is ready for that, this girl included. But Florida, as does the UK, has social services that can help, and as I keep saying, there are plenty of couples desperate to adopt newborn babies. Problems in the adoption system, by the way, tend to arise with older kids, often with behavioural issues, removed from their parents after some years, and not newborns. I believe I can say with some confidence that if this child was allowed to be born, s/he would quickly go to a loving home.

What I actually believe is abortion is right, and should be allowed by law, as it will happen whether legal or not, and if it's legal, there are at least some controls on it.

I do not believe the argument 'it'll happen any way' is a reason for not legislating against something.

I also believe that it should be, ultimately, the woman's decision whether she has a baby or not. That decision should only be taken after appropriate counselling though.

I realise that I am not going to persuade you abortion is right, so we will have to agree to disagree.

You're right, you're not going to convince me I don't suppose I'm going to convince you either. In your final analysis, you place the woman's right to choose as higher than the child's right to life. I take the opposite view.

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by orangebird

Eh??? Firstly, it wasn't a concious thought to type god in lower case, and secondly, I never changed or edited my post at all!

I didn't say you edited it.

Regardless of whether someone believes in a biblical God, tampering with nature/playing God is going to be our downfall I fear.

Originally Posted by Chris T

I have indeed found ... and we are about to find so again. Mrs T is 35 weeks pregnant and we will be a family of four, all being well, at the beginning of June.

Woohoo!!! Congrats!!

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by Russ D

I didn't say you edited it.

So what did you mean by

(and I spotted the change from upper case to lower case - you really didn't need to do that!)

Regardless of whether someone believes in a biblical God, tampering with nature/playing God is going to be our downfall I fear.

What's there to fear - what 'downfalls' are you worried about? Treatments for disease? Clean running water? Food we don't have to catch and skin ourselves?

Woohoo!!! Congrats!!

Same here, very pleased for you

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by orangebird

So what did you mean by

Apologies for the misunderstanding!

Originally Posted by orangebird

What's there to fear - what 'downfalls' are you worried about? Treatments for disease? Clean running water? Food we don't have to catch and skin ourselves?

Trying to harness a force we have little or no understanding of?

[Stuart C]

Originally Posted by Chris T

All of which helps give the lie to the idea that all that is happening is the 'termination of a foetus'. Every pregnant woman I have met knows deep down that there is a new life inside them right from the start. The only way to escape the regret that follows abortion is to convince onesself that this is not the case. The use of impersonal, medical terminology like 'termination' and 'foetus' is very useful in that respect, but ultimately it often doesn't work, as would seem to be the case with your friend. It speaks volumes to me that she still regrets it, even after thinking it through and deciding it was the 'right' thing to do.

Actually, I was trying to make the point that most people do not take decisions involving abortion easily.

My friend took the logical decision, and as I understand it, she took it with good, logical reasons (after all, she could not afford the baby). The problem is, logic is cold. It does not take into account emotions. The law does not either.

The other arguement I made, about abortion happening whether legal or not, is actually based on fact. IIRC Abortion was legalised purely because women who (when they didn't want a child for whatever reason) were either trying to abort the pregnancy themselves, or going to backstreet abortionists. Either way they were exposing themselves to the risk of death or infertility. I realise this doesn't make abortion right, but it is (IMO) a good reason not to ban it.

[Jefferson T]

Originally Posted by Chris T

I have indeed found ... and we are about to find so again. Mrs T is 35 weeks pregnant and we will be a family of four, all being well, at the beginning of June.

Congratulations indeedy

[kronas]

Originally Posted by Chris T

IMO abortion is obscene, especially when there are people out there who cannot have children of their own and would gladly adopt.

so you find it logcial for a 13 year old to look after a child ? how is that child going to be supported financially and emotionally ? this young girl needs an education, a life, time to adjust to the big world out there and learn to fend for herself and do well academically,not be bogged down by a child, or are you suggesting the child spend its early years in care just like its mother!?

as for adoption its already possible there are plenty of people out there who need adopting.

i dont see any 'weak' reasons as to the allowence of the baby's abortion i believe its the correct decision, if she wanted to keep it then i would be very concerned at this early stage in life.

there are so many factors to take in to consideration, timing ie her age, financial status, family status, support is adequate, the mental toll it will take, being a mother is not easy and aborting a foetus or 'living human' if you want to call it is not easy but why should a child live in hardship and be tossed around left right and centre by the young mother who would proberbly want to lead some sort of normality in life.

once you have a child its all change.

Originally Posted by Chris T

Not big, and not clever. If you want evidence of abandonment of reason, that smiley is as far as you need to look.

im not being big or clever merely trying to see your point of view which i happen to disagree with.

[Nugget]

Originally Posted by kronas

so you find it logcial for a 13 year old to look after a child ? how is that child going to be supported financially and emotionally ? this young girl needs an education, a life, time to adjust to the big world out there and learn to fend for herself and do well academically,not be bogged down by a child, or are you suggesting the child spend its early years in care just like its mother!?

as for adoption its already possible there are plenty of people out there who need adopting.

i dont see any 'weak' reasons as to the allowence of the baby's abortion i believe its the correct decision, if she wanted to keep it then i would be very concerned at this early stage in life.

there are so many factors to take in to consideration, timing ie her age, financial status, family status, support is adequate, the mental toll it will take, being a mother is not easy and aborting a foetus or 'living human' if you want to call it is not easy but why should a child live in hardship and be tossed around left right and centre by the young mother who would proberbly want to lead some sort of normality in life.

once you have a child its all change.

Kronas, this isn't about the logic behind the girl keeping / not keeping the child - if Chris doesn't agree with abortion then logic doesn't come into it because that's his belief. For that matter, I don't agree with abortion.

In this case, I don't think anybody here would argue that this girls life would be easy with a baby but you're taking a bit of a leap of faith to say that the child would be 'tossed left right and centre' - if the social services provided a decent level of care, then the support structure may benefit the girl as well.

As ever, just IMO.

[kronas]

Originally Posted by Nugget

Kronas, this isn't about the logic behind the girl keeping / not keeping the child - if Chris doesn't agree with abortion then logic doesn't come into it because that's his belief. For that matter, I don't agree with abortion.

logically we look at things diffarently, i believe abortion should be used if necessary not as an option to give arguments of 'im not ready' or this is unplanned.

Originally Posted by Nugget

In this case, I don't think anybody here would argue that this girls life would be easy with a baby but you're taking a bit of a leap of faith to say that the child would be 'tossed left right and centre' - if the social services provided a decent level of care, then the support structure may benefit the girl as well.

As ever, just IMO.

for a child to be happy and prosperous it needs stabilty, a mother and father to nurse it through the early years, it needs its biological parents and i believe there is a maternal link between a mother and baby even after the child is born.

[Nugget]

Originally Posted by kronas

logically we look at things diffarently, i believe abortion should be used if necessary not as an option to give arguments of 'im not ready' or this is unplanned.

Fair enough!

Originally Posted by kronas

for a child to be happy and prosperous it needs stabilty, a mother and father to nurse it through the early years, it needs its biological parents and i believe there is a maternal link between a mother and baby even after the child is born.

So you're saying that adopted children aren't happy or prosperous? That they won't have stability? The presence of a biological parent does not automatically confer a happy life on a child - the biological parent can inflict just as much pain and misery on a child as anybody else.

[kronas]

Originally Posted by Nugget

So you're saying that adopted children aren't happy or prosperous? That they won't have stability? The presence of a biological parent does not automatically confer a happy life on a child - the biological parent can inflict just as much pain and misery on a child as anybody else.

no, im not saying that at all what im saying is that i prefer for the child to have its biological parents, i would like to also add that you are right in what you have said it does not mean that definatively there will be no 'pain or misery' but it is less likely.

and less problems will occour such as the child rebelling once it does find out that it does not have real parents.

the start of the search fro its real parents.

thats not to say every child will do that.

[Orior]

So, was Hitler right to create a superior race? Seems like a lot of posters here agree with what he was doing. Kill of the weak. Only breed the good'uns. Yeap, playing God indeed.

May I misquote a line from Jurassic Park. "Just because we can, does not mean we should"