Florida girl's abortion allowed

[Chris]

Originally Posted by andygrif

Kind of agree with you here. And I am more than a little confused about what he said. Para-phrasing he was saying that:

• A 13 year old girl being pregnant is wrong.

• A 13 year old girl having an abortion is wrong.

I know this is a sensitive subject but you can't have it both ways Jeb! Or are you as thick as your brother?

Quite honestly I find it highly offensive that so many politicians now wish to interfere (especially in the US) with people's lives, spouting off religion as a reason to do so.

Surely politicians should stick to politics, as they not only represent (IMHO) extremist Christians but people of all and no faith.

Actually politicians get elected on a platform of policies and principles they (usually) set out ahead of the election. Once elected, by a majority of the people, they then seek to do the things they have already said they would do. That's how representative democracy works. I don't think there was any doubt over his religious tendencies before he was elected. If the citizens of Florida found that unacceptable, they could have voted for the other guy.


I get a little fed up of people suggesting that 'religion' is not a valid motivator when it comes to defining personal morals, and morals as applied to society. Why is this? The implication here is that a antheist viewpoint is inherently superior, but I don't see why?


Whether or not you believe in a deity will in many cases affect the way you view, in this instance for example, human life and how you balance the right to life (on the part of the unborn child) and the right to choose (on the part of the mother). Presenting the atheistic, humanist view as the 'default' setting for human morality, with religion merely an unwelcome addition, is absurd, especially seeing as humanists are an underwhelming minority of the population of this planet.


Incidentally, I know it's generally considered good sport to paint the family Bush as a bit thick, but it doesn't take much deep thought to see what Jeb is driving at in this instance. Yes, 13-year-olds getting pregnant is wrong, but once it's happened it is better to give the unborn baby its shot at life on earth than to kill him/her.
__________________

Originally Posted by kronas

the problem is in the majority (60-70%) of americans are indeed religious.

so when bush senior interferes its leading the americans like sheep they will follow because its a religious line.

Do you want to take a step back, read that again and think about how ridiculous it sounds? An essentially religious nation elects a religious politician who then proceeds to act in a manner influenced by his religion. Yet the people are somehow being 'led like sheep'. Beg your pardon, but as I said in reply to Andygrif, it was the people that put him there, in full knowledge of his views. He is doing what he was elected to do, not perfoming some great big con-trick on the Florida electorate, no matter how much you want to believe it to be the case.

[Russ B]

Have a greenie for the best post I've read in this thread yet

[kronas]

Originally Posted by Chris T

Do you want to take a step back, read that again and think about how ridiculous it sounds?

no because its based on my opinion of how i have read the situation, as i said before in the name of religion if he says something like that they they will follow its all well and good for the predominantly religious public to agree with him if they want to.

Originally Posted by Chris T

An essentially religious nation elects a religious politician who then proceeds to act in a manner influenced by his religion.

yes and good for them but i dont agree with it.

Originally Posted by Chris T

Yet the people are somehow being 'led like sheep'.

yes i feel he is using religious lines and not taking in to account what the girl feels should happen and what is right based on the grounds of humanity.

Originally Posted by Chris T

Beg your pardon, but as I said in reply to Andygrif, it was the people that put him there, in full knowledge of his views. He is doing what he was elected to do, not perfoming some great big con-trick on the Florida electorate, no matter how much you want to believe it to be the case.

and as i said the majority of americans are religious (christians ?) i think so i see that as a reason, if you are 'intune' with the majority of the religious section then ofcourse you are going to get elected.

im not attacking bush because hes a thicko i just disagree with the way he makes decisions.

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by Chris T

<SNIP> Yes, 13-year-olds getting pregnant is wrong, but once it's happened it is better to give the unborn baby its shot at life on earth than to kill him/her.
<SNIP>=

Says who?

[Chris]

Originally Posted by orangebird

Says who?

Says the God I worship, and therefore me.

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by orangebird

Says who?

Says Chris?

[kronas]

Originally Posted by Russ D

Says Chris?

wrong its his religion or should i say god.

[Russ B]

Originally Posted by kronas

wrong its his religion or should i say god.

So maybe like me he had those views before becoming a Christian?

[kronas]

Originally Posted by Russ D

So maybe like me he had those views before becoming a Christian?

he said god....maybe he did indeed have that opinion but he said god i made my comment based on what was stated.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by kronas

wrong its his religion or should i say god.

Wrong, I say it myself. I am not a mindless robot. I derive my morality in exactly the way you do: I look at the universe, the people and the things that are in it, and then establish a set of guiding rules and principles that I believe best govern my conduct and that of others. The difference between you and I in this process, is that my view of the universe takes account of the one who set it up in the first place.
__________________

Originally Posted by Russ D

So maybe like me he had those views before becoming a Christian?

That's an interesting one, I can't actually remember! But I became a Christian aged 17 and now I'm 32. It throws up another question though. I, as many regulars here know, am pro-life. Would that position be generally better respected had I arrived at it without reference to any faith-based reasoning?

[kronas]

Originally Posted by Chris T

Wrong, I say it myself. I am not a mindless robot. I derive my morality in exactly the way you do: I look at the universe, the people and the things that are in it, and then establish a set of guiding rules and principles that I believe best govern my conduct and that of others. The difference between you and I in this process, is that my view of the universe takes account of the one who set it up in the first place.

fine and i accept that, but i dont like arguments and principles being brought forward 'in the name of god' or them being derived from religious books and then not taking in to account what exactly is happening to a human based on humanity.

what im trying to say is too many people hide behind the religious line to justify their meanings and im not saying they are wrong i just dont agree with that in this specific case.

[philip.j.fry]

Originally Posted by Chris T

The implication here is that a antheist viewpoint is inherently superior, but I don't see why?

Because we are assured of a place in the great anthill in the sky when we die?

Seriously though, isn't just having a viewpoint to think that it is inherently superior whatever ones religious standing?

[Chris]

Originally Posted by kronas

fine and i accept that, but i dont like arguments and principles being brought forward 'in the name of god' or them being derived from religious books and then not taking in to account what exactly is happening to a human based on humanity.

what im trying to say is too many people hide behind the religious line to justify their meanings and im not saying they are wrong i just dont agree with that in this specific case.

But that's because you see humanity outside of the context of God. A Christian sees the fate of humanity as inextricably tied to God whether humanity likes it or not. Therefore to a Christian there's nothing unreasonable or unnatural in there being a religious dimension to any debate on this or a similar subject.

I still don't see why you find phrases 'hide behind' and 'led like sheep' to be appropriate. I am demonstrating to you quite clearly that having a religious element to your thinking is not an act of intellectual suicide, yet your language continues to suggest that you think religion is a substitute for thought.

[kronas]

Originally Posted by Chris T

But that's because you see humanity outside of the context of God.

correct.

Originally Posted by Chris T

A Christian sees the fate of humanity as inextricably tied to God whether humanity likes it or not.

yep i understand.

Originally Posted by Chris T

Therefore to a Christian there's nothing unreasonable or unnatural in there being a religious dimension to any debate on this or a similar subject.

therein likes the problem, i have seen and heard myself incidents such as this subject where its not a matter of what a human percieves but the religious gorunds in what makes their decision valid, a typical reason to hide behind any reasoning at all over what the affect is outside of religious thoughts.

Originally Posted by Chris T

I still don't see why you find phrases 'hide behind' and 'led like sheep' to be appropriate.

its true thats why.

Originally Posted by Chris T

I am demonstrating to you quite clearly that having a religious element to your thinking is not an act of intellectual suicide, yet your language continues to suggest that you think religion is a substitute for thought.

i never said 'it was an act of intllectual suicide' rather religion can cloud judgements.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by kronas

i never said 'it was an act of intllectual suicide' rather religion can cloud judgements.

In which case, why do you find phrases like 'hide behind' and 'led like sheep' appropriate or 'true'? Those phrases don't suggest clouded judgement, they suggest complete abandonment of it.

What can I say? Where you see cloud, I see clarity.

And now we're drifiting off topic.