where does the money come from

[hairy_mick]

What used to be local housing stock is now run by a not for profit outfit its still run by the council what i want to know is were does the 100m pounds come from to do the renevating ie new heating windows and the likes i ask because i have been in a few houses where the glass seals have broken down and they have only been in for six months is it cheap and shoddy or what or is somebody on the take by suppling sub standard windows ie seconds.

[Flubflow]

If I may have a general rant related to this subject for a moment....

It is an absolute fact (although the council or housing management organsiation may not agree) that there are two ways to do housing repairs/renovations.

Generally speaking, there is the proper way or there is the council way.

The proper way is where the job is done when you need it done and to the kind of standard that you would expect just as if you were a home owner and the contractor treated you as such. A typical contractor would need a home owner to be happy so that you pay your bill and give them good word-of-mouth advertising so the job is usually high quality (obvious cowboys excepted). Contractors who work for the council have no such requirements.

The council method is to make sure that the contractor uses poor quality or inappropriate materials, does the most shoddy workmanship possible and treats the tennant as if they are "lucky to be having all this **** for free". They don't care about you. They just want to be in and out as quick as possible so they can tick the box. What you are given is what you get and they don't care whether you like it or not, or whether it is good or bad.

This and other bizarre behavior, which is particulary true of Stockton Borough Council and their ALMO (arms length managment organisation) Tristar Homes, is typical and they seem to think, for example, that people don't need to have draughty unsafe window frames replaced after 35 years but do feel the need to charge you ever increasing rents on such defective properties.

After an indepenent auditor recently visted homes in the stockton area (presumably to take stock of where the real problems were) it was revealed (unofficially) that the new housing management organisation have little by way of records of exactly what renovation had actually been done on local housing in the past (hence the need for the auditors "survey"). So, if you've seen renovation going on in other esates nearby in your area you think you might be on some kind of short list for the same then think again. It seems they have no real plan and they just wait for some special aid grant for which they can apply for and then do a load of work on a clump of houses and then stop (until another grant becomes available). A lot of recent renovations in our area were not funded by money from rent income but from special national/european grants.

The only way to get any problems sorted is to shout loudly and often. For it is those with the loudest and most persistent voice spouting off in the middle of the housing office, and not the people who complain quietly through official channels, who seem to get the jobs done in the end. Do not listen to any BS about "budget constraints" or "renovation schedules". You pay rent and you deserve to have a home that is at least watertight and wind proof regardless of any future renovation scheme that they might have in their dreams.
Do not trust housing inspectors. Most of them know jack all. That's why they work for the council instead of in a proper job. Ideally you need a friend in the trade to be with you in order to cut throught the BS that is fed to you everytime you need a repair doing.

Rant overwith.

[Paul M]

Buy the house off the council - the mortgage will probably be cheaper than the rent these days.

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by Paul M

Buy the house off the council - the mortgage will probably be cheaper than the rent these days.

Yep, that's what most people do when they scrape together a deposit (providing the area is reasonably nice to start with).
Trouble is that sometimes, unless most of the properties end up being privately owned in one estate, the council ends up wanting to demolish the whole area at some point in the future and start all over again with some new "vision". .

One of the other problems is that Johnny Two Jags Prescott in his infinitely fat wisdom saw fit to impose a cap on the right-to-buy discount. This cap has not risen along with inflation or with house price increases. The cap varies depending on the region and in this area it is still at the same old £22,500 cap as when it was introduced by Labour in the late 1990's (except in Scotland where no cap whatsoever was imposed). So, if say in 1999 when your council house was valued at £45,000 then, with your 60% discount, you were still laughing so nobody thought anything much of this new cap back then. Today however, when your house value has rocketed to £130,000 and the RTB cap has remained the same, then you are knackered. Its still cheaper than normal but not by much and not as cheap as rent for a long time. The RTB cap was introduced to stop the sapping up of council housing by proxy RTB purchasers in places like London for the sake of people making a fast buck (with the loss of badly needed affordable housing) but that simply has no bearing up here. They can't get rid of council houses fast enough because they are a financial burden to the councils.
The council up here don't want the burden of housing and all its maintenance problems. That's presumably why they set up these ALMO's. It is the first step in pushing them fully off in to private management companies and rid themselves of a problem that gives them so much public grief.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by Flubflow

Yep, that's what most people do when they scrape together a deposit (providing the area is reasonably nice to start with).
Trouble is that sometimes, unless most of the properties end up being privately owned in one estate, the council ends up wanting to demolish the whole area at some point in the future and start all over again with some new "vision". .

One of the other problems is that Johnny Two Jags Prescott in his infinitely fat wisdom saw fit to impose a cap on the right-to-buy discount. This cap has not risen along with inflation or with house price increases. The cap varies depending on the region and in this area it is still at the same old £22,500 cap as when it was introduced by Labour in the late 1990's (except in Scotland where no cap whatsoever was imposed). So, if say in 1999 when your council house was valued at £45,000 then, with your 60% discount, you were still laughing so nobody thought anything much of this new cap back then. Today however, when your house value has rocketed to £130,000 and the RTB cap has remained the same, then you are knackered. Its still cheaper than normal but not by much and not as cheap as rent for a long time. The RTB cap was introduced to stop the sapping up of council housing by proxy RTB purchasers in places like London for the sake of people making a fast buck (with the loss of badly needed affordable housing) but that simply has no bearing up here. They can't get rid of council houses fast enough because they are a financial burden to the councils.
The council up here don't want the burden of housing and all its maintenance problems. That's presumably why they set up these ALMO's. It is the first step in pushing them fully off in to private management companies and rid themselves of a problem that gives them so much public grief.

Well I'm going to have a rant now. (Not personally aimed at you Flubflow)

Council housing has always been run at a loss, I am not up to date with things recently but I used to socialise once a week with the local housing officer a neumber of years ago. They were happy to sell off all their council houses to tennants because the arrears were a massive debt, they were in the situation where they could not kick the people out for not paying because it would then cost them three times more to put the person into sheltered accomodation. In many cases the debts were written off or the debtor had to repay a small amount over many years to repay the debt.

I also disagree with the discount, why should someone who rents a council house be allowed to have a huge discount when the same doesn't apply to peopel who have been renting privately. Many people who were renting privately did so because they didn't earn enough money to pay a deposit and get a mortgage etc, but on the other hand the single parents and general scroungers were able to be given priority housing by the local authority. Many single mothers in my area were given houses during the 80's and 90's, they later moved in boyfriends and were able to buy the properties at a hugely discounted price. I am buying a property from a close relative, I have lived in it for over twenty years with him and paid all the bills and maintenance. However any discount below the market value is liable to tax, there is no upper limit for me so why should there be for council tennants.

The whole problem with council houses started when the government was throwing around cash after the war to buil cheap affordable housing, this was much needed but as always councils never think about maintenance costs. They love grabbing any grant money that's available and then have problems when maintenance is required. My local council is going to shut three schools, the schools are in such a bad state of repair that they say it will be cheaper to build new ones. The largest school is about 30 years old and the council want it shut quickly so they can sell the land to a developer who is planning to build 500 executive homes.

I have long since realised that going out and getting yourself a job, working hard to buy posessions is for mugs, I should of walked out of home at seventeen and presented myself at the council housing department as a homeless person. then I could of gone on a car stealing and house breaking spree, possibly even sell a few drugs........ Theres always someone who would of taken pity on me and given me a second chance.

Sorry Flubflow not having a dig at you, just on my soapbox again

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by Escapee

Well I'm going to have a rant now. (Not personally aimed at you Flubflow) .......

Understood.

However, people who rent privately could still go on to a council/HA waiting list and then eventually apply for the RTB when they get a place they like. So it is open to anyone really. There has to be a priority for the homeless, the elderly and single parents though and, as much as some of them are victims of their own making, ultimately they do have an immediate problem and need social housing more urgently than a person with a job. The thing is that they, out of sheer desperation, would probably accept the kind of place that you wouldn't think fit to take a dump in .

Council tennents have always been able to put in a bid for buying their home at a discount even before Thatcher's RTB legislation. In fact I know someone who were able to buy their council home before RTB and they actually got it cheaper than they have would under the initially reasonable RTB discount schedule.
RTB just made it a right in law, with some fixed % numbers, rather than a discretionary priviledge (and RTB includes housing association tennents too).
After the RTB came in, some ex-council areas have been totally transformed within a short space of time due to the pride born out of home ownership. I often wonder how those areas would look now if people had not had the right to buy their council/HA home.

I think the reason why council/HA tennents feel they should have that right to buy is because they waited and waited for a nice home, lived in it for 20 years or more, paid ever increasing rents in exchange for crude barely acceptable maintenance (which often would be considered "cowboy" workkmanship in the real world) and they just want to ge out of the rent trap, have the nightmare and uncertaintanty end so they can finally be in control of their own lives.

I don't know why there should be much demand for many new homes up here because the local population is actually declining (and that is one reason why they are closing down/merging schools).
However, I think there is still a demand for affordable homes in areas that don't look like scrap yards.

Council housing maintenance did not seem to be much of a problem 35 years or so ago when I was a kid. For example, I remember every few years they used to burn off the old exterior paintwork - cos I'd used to sit there in my little pedal car and watch them do it (and probably sniffed too much of the burning paint vapour - which probably is why I'm so mental now ). They'd also replace any slightly dodgy woodwork and do the whole repainting job properly. Nowadays they shove filler in here and there and wadge a load of thick paint over it so you don't notice until a year later when it splits again and the paint comes flaking off.
I once got a builder friend to inspect a relative's house after the council's most recent "repaint programme" and he laughed is is arse off at the "workmanship" (which was supposed to last for another 4 years until the next repaint programme).

I don't know where the argument is going but I suppose it just feels good to have a general moan and blame the council even if is is not entirely their fault all the time.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by Flubflow

Understood.

However, people who rent privately could still go on to a council/HA waiting list and then eventually apply for the RTB when they get a place they like. So it is open to anyone really. There has to be a priority for the homeless, the elderly and single parents though and, as much as some of them are victims of their own making, ultimately they do have an immediate problem and need social housing more urgently than a person with a job. The thing is that they, out of sheer desperation, would probably accept the kind of place that you wouldn't think fit to take a dump in .

Council tennents have always been able to put in a bid for buying their home at a discount even before Thatcher's RTB legislation. In fact I know someone who were able to buy their council home before RTB and they actually got it cheaper than they have would under the initially reasonable RTB discount schedule.
RTB just made it a right in law, with some fixed % numbers, rather than a discretionary priviledge (and RTB includes housing association tennents too).
After the RTB came in, some ex-council areas have been totally transformed within a short space of time due to the pride born out of home ownership. I often wonder how those areas would look now if people had not had the right to buy their council/HA home.

I think the reason why council/HA tennents feel they should have that right to buy is because they waited and waited for a nice home, lived in it for 20 years or more, paid ever increasing rents in exchange for crude barely acceptable maintenance (which often would be considered "cowboy" workkmanship in the real world) and they just want to ge out of the rent trap, have the nightmare and uncertaintanty end so they can finally be in control of their own lives.

I don't know why there should be much demand for many new homes up here because the local population is actually declining (and that is one reason why they are closing down/merging schools).
However, I think there is still a demand for affordable homes in areas that don't look like scrap yards.

Council housing maintenance did not seem to be much of a problem 35 years or so ago when I was a kid. For example, I remember every few years they used to burn off the old exterior paintwork - cos I'd used to sit there in my little pedal car and watch them do it (and probably sniffed too much of the burning paint vapour - which probably is why I'm so mental now ). They'd also replace any slightly dodgy woodwork and do the whole repainting job properly. Nowadays they shove filler in here and there and wadge a load of thick paint over it so you don't notice until a year later when it splits again and the paint comes flaking off.
I once got a builder friend to inspect a relative's house after the council's most recent "repaint programme" and he laughed is is arse off at the "workmanship" (which was supposed to last for another 4 years until the next repaint programme).

I don't know where the argument is going but I suppose it just feels good to have a general moan and blame the council even if is is not entirely their fault all the time.

I know the waiting list was a joke for someone who was already housed, we had a relative from up north many years ago who was getting divorced after the husband run off with someone else. She had to give up the house because she couldn't buy him out, she wanted to move down to our area and the council told her the chance of getting a house/flat was zero.
I know she was on the list down here for some obscene number of years and gave up in the end, she moved out of the family home and rented privately for a while. Her local council told her the only way to get a house was wait until the joint home was sold and then turn up at the housing department as a homeless person.

That is obviously not an option for someone who has worked and acquired worldly goods, but on the other hand it's no problem for the ones who drink, smoke and gamble all their money away and have very little to show for it.

I am in rant mode again, it's all because the odds are stacked against the guy who goes out, gets a job, houses himself (Buying renting privately or paying council) and pays his bills.

The answer is to do none of these, and let all the other mugs chip in to pay for you.

Hey Flubflow, whats this talk of scrapyards.... you been looking at my back garden? At least the neighbours cant see any of it though, and one of them actually said to me recently that all my cars etc are no problem. He said I may keep my self to my self here, but at least I'm not causing trouble, own unruly kids or have dogs that s**t all over the street like our friendly do-gooder neighbours who regulary do work for homeless people.