Last night's program on abortion - (non discussion thread)

[Jon M]

I'm aware that this subject is a touchy one at the best of times.

Did anyone see it?
What did you think?
Has it changed your opinion?

Predictably, I'm a pro-lifer.. the program has re-inforced my views.

I was just wondering the effect it had on the rest of you.

*Please keep your comments restricted to your own opinion, ignore any post that you disagree with - this is for sharing, not discussion (this time). :: please respect these conditions I don't want to get this deleted*

[Chris]

Because I believe life begins at conception, I believe that the child, not just the mother, has rights. I can't accept abortion under any circumstances except those which put the life of both mother and child at immediate and serious risk, and even then not as a matter of course. As I understand it, such abortion is a small minority of the operations that are performed. I would not consider a positive test for Down's syndrome, for example, as grounds for abortion.

[Jon M]

An article for those who didn't see it: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_ne...185399,00.html

Originally Posted by towny

Because I believe life begins at conception, I believe that the child, not just the mother, has rights. I can't accept abortion under any circumstances except those which put the life of both mother and child at immediate and serious risk, and even then not as a matter of course. As I understand it, such abortion is a small minority of the operations that are performed. I would not consider a positive test for Down's syndrome, for example, as grounds for abortion.

I used to have the same view as you until A friend of mine was raped and conceived. Now im not so sure that its so black and white

[Chris]

Originally Posted by gary_580

I used to have the same view as you until A friend of mine was raped and conceived. Now im not so sure that its so black and white

Life is never black and white. But I don't think having a rapist as a father means you have to die.

[Jon M]

guys, i can't believe I'm repeating the requests i made in the first post so soon.. please don't let me down

[xaq141175]

My position on abortion hasn't changed due to the program but my feelings about it certainly have. The program changed the issue from a theoretical/moral one to a real, tangiable one.

I'm ok with abortion up until the Central Nervous System has formed (at about the 10th to 12th week if memory serves). What bothers me about the issue of abortion when discussed is that it always turns into a feminist issue rather that sticking to the object of contention, the fetus.

Originally Posted by xaq141175

I'm ok with abortion up until the Central Nervous System has formed (at about the 10th to 12th week if memory serves).

Don`t worry Silv3r, I`m not about to start arguing with xaq, but the comment does touch upon my attitudes up to a point.

I don`t see that the development of the CNS per se necessarily determines whether the foetus is suitable for termination. At the point when it has just developed, it is essentially a blank computer waiting for its first program.

I make the distinction between the biological function that we call "life" and sentience. A foetus in the womb does not, in my opinion, have enough sensory stimulation to be able to construct the necessary congitive processes to develop sentience. I`m fully aware that a foetus can receive sensory input while in the womb, but I consider this to be of a sufficiently sparse nature for sentience to develop as the foetus does not have the necessary frame of reference to start processing that information meaningfully.

While I would not argue that it be implemented in practice, I`m not convinced that until the child has been born that it can be considered to be sentient, and I would even go so far that there need to be a period of time outside of the womb for the child to build up enough of a cognitive foundation to be considered as sentient.

For me personally, the key defining factor is the issue of sentience, and when I approach the topic from that perspective I see little difference between a developing foetus and a culture of cells extracted from a mouth swap being cultivated in a dish of agar jelly.

[downquark1]

Originally Posted by dr wadd

<snip>

But this then raises questions about treatment of animals depending on how sentient they are.

Very good points

Originally Posted by towny

Life is never black and white. But I don't think having a rapist as a father means you have to die.

yes i agree but its a pretty tough one. For the mother knowing what happened for the child never knowing the parent. Not really sure what i would want if i was that child to be honest.

[andygrif]

Originally Posted by towny

Because I believe life begins at conception, I believe that the child, not just the mother, has rights.

And the father of course?

I didn't see the programme, but I gather that it was actually a very ballanced programme that did not try to force on side of the argument or the other. From what I understand, it was very matter of fact, informative and it does promote further discussion - which can only be a good thing.

I think it might have helped some people come to a personal conclusion, however I think most people already know where they stand on the issue.

There will be circumstances where people's opions will change of course, and someone mentioned rape earlier. Some will agree that the mother could be so traumatised by becoming pregnant through such a brutal occourence, that they could not seriously be expected to go through 9 months of tourment. Some people will see this as an opportunity for some good to come out of evil.

Whichever side of the fence your beliefs are on, surely most sensible attitude is that of pro-choice for the parents - no-one else has the right to say whether their choice is right or wrong.

[Simon M]

Originally Posted by gary_580

yes i agree but its a pretty tough one. For the mother knowing what happened for the child never knowing the parent. Not really sure what i would want if i was that child to be honest.

Been there, done that and survived

Originally Posted by downquark1

But this then raises questions about treatment of animals depending on how sentient they are.

It most certainly does, and for me also the whole issue of what happens when we develop the first truly sentient AI. I personally find it much more meaningful to talk about these issues in terms of whether a being is sentient or not rather than whether it is "alive" as the latter is such a fundamentally vague term.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by andygrif

And the father of course?

Naturally. But as Xaq says, the debate is so often dictated by the feminist agenda it's an easy omission to make.

Originally Posted by andygrif

Some will agree that the mother could be so traumatised by becoming pregnant through such a brutal occourence, that they could not seriously be expected to go through 9 months of tourment. Some people will see this as an opportunity for some good to come out of evil.

I would also imagine that there will be children that have been conceived under such circumstances that could be highly traumatised if they were to discover that they are the result of their mother being raped. Under such circumstances surely the child's psychological well being should also be taken into consideration.