New upload speeds and Network Management - Page 4

Ignitionnet · 30-09-2010, 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masque

The traffic management link below shows no shaping on the 50Mb downstream only upstream.

http://www.virginmedia.com/myvirginm...ment_table.php

That's because that's traffic management not protocol shaping. Totally different things as I suspect you'll find out in a big way when fielding calls on this

---------- Post added at 16:17 ---------- Previous post was at 16:16 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by weesteev

The file sharing restrictions appear to link into the existing STM policy as well, if thats the case then 50Mb has no restrictions downstream.

Where do the file sharing restrictions appear to link into the existing STM policy?

I see nothing to suggest this at all. Quite the opposite.

http://www.virginmedia.com/traffic

Quote:

What traffic management policies are you applying to the heaviest users?

That can depend on the broadband package you're signed up to and the type of online applications you are using.

For detailed information on how we manage individual customers who are uploading or downloading an unusually large amount of data click here.

This policy only affects the top 5% of customers on a daily basis - those whose usage of the service would affect other customers in their area if they weren't managed.

File Sharing:

We also moderate the total volume of file sharing traffic on our network between 5pm and midnight on weekdays and midday and midnight on weekends. This policy is restricted to Peer to Peer (“P2P”) applications and Newsgroups (which are commonly used to distribute large amounts of data)

Seems pretty clear to me, 'also' and 'total volume' are quite specifically used

RainmakerRaw · 30-09-2010, 15:25

To clarify further:

Quote:

How does it affect me?
Customers with Broadband size: XXL (50Mb) – your downstream usage excluding file sharing traffic (see below) remains unaffected and we'll soon be increasing your upload speeds from 1.5Mb to 5Mb. However during peak times we'll need to slow you back to 1.75Mb if your upload usage is particularly high.

Quote:

File sharing
At peak times we also slow down the speed of file sharing traffic – that's services like Limewire, Gnutella, BitTorrent and Newsgroup (Usenet) traffic. You will, of course, still be able to use these services, but downloads and uploads will take longer during these peak periods.

This is from http://shop.virginmedia.com/help/tra...anagement.html

So in other words, you can do anything you want with your 50 meg connection, except download with it... LOL

If it's hard capped at 25% of capacity that's stupid (well depending on what that actually is). I mean if I'm paying for XXL, which I am, and want to download something at 11pm and it happens nobody in my area is doing much (I'm in a small area) then up to 70% of network capacity is sat doing nothing, while I'm being "shaped" to buggery.

They definitely need to clarify this imho.

Bman · 30-09-2010, 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainmakerRaw

If it's hard capped at 25% of capacity that's stupid (well depending on what that actually is). I mean if I'm paying for XXL, which I am, and want to download something at 11pm and it happens nobody in my area is doing much (I'm in a small area) then up to 70% of network capacity is sat doing nothing, while I'm being "shaped" to buggery.

They definitely need to clarify this imho.

If that's the case then hopefully the 75% is just 'reserved' and can still be used by p2p if it's sat there doing nothing.

RainmakerRaw · 30-09-2010, 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bman

If that's the case then hopefully the 75% is just 'reserved' and can still be used by p2p if it's sat there doing nothing.

Indeed. I'm very anti-throttling in general. Sorry, but if Easynet/Sky/UK Online could provide me with 500GB plus of completely unthrottled data a month over an old fashioned phone line, and have the netadmin say to me "It's OK we have tons of bandwidth", surely VM can do the same with their "fibre optic" network.

But I'd have no qualms if the NNTP/BT shaping is as you suggest. "Up to 100%" of speed during 5pm to midnight, lowered by up to 75% (i.e. down to 25% of capacity) "IF" it is being actively utilised elsewhere by users, is OK by me. That's just a balancing game. But "Nobody is using it, but you can still only have 25%" is a bit daft. Depends what they mean by it; it really does need clarifying.

Peter_ · 30-09-2010, 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

That's because that's traffic management not protocol shaping. Totally different things as I suspect you'll find out in a big way when fielding calls on this

As it stands now the is traffic management on the 50Mb Upstream which can drop from 5Mb up to 1.75Mb up a drop of 65%, but the is no corresponding figures to say that the is traffic management or protocol shaping on 50Mb as it would have to be published.

If such information were not published then customers will disconnect in droves and will be within their rights as they must publish such information otherwise they would just be fielded to Customer Relations by all agents as we have no knowledge of any such protocol.

RainmakerRaw · 30-09-2010, 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masque

As it stands now the is traffic management on the 50Mb Upstream which can drop from 5Mb up to 1.75Mb up a drop of 65%, but the is no corresponding figures to say that the is traffic management or protocol shaping on 50Mb as it would have to be published.

Erm, I posted just such a quote (see above) from VM's own website, stating that 50Mbps IS subject to shaping for NNTP and BT between 5pm and midnight.

EDIT: And yes; depending on how they end up implementing it (as above it's far from clear), I'm considering leaving. I'd rather have a truly unrestricted 20Mbps than a shaped and throttled 50 meg cable line. My line does provide a full 20-21Mbps on a 24Mbps ADSL2+ line, I've had it before. The reason I jumped to VM was because 50 meg/XXL was advertised as being "truly unlimited 'fibre optic' broadband'. *backpeddle, backpeddle*...

Ignitionnet · 30-09-2010, 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masque

As it stands now the is traffic management on the 50Mb Upstream which can drop from 5Mb up to 1.75Mb up a drop of 65%, but the is no corresponding figures to say that the is traffic management or protocol shaping on 50Mb as it would have to be published.

If such information were not published then customers will disconnect in droves and will be within their rights as they must publish such information otherwise they would just be fielded to Customer Relations by all agents as we have no knowledge of any such protocol.

It has been published.

http://pressoffice.virginmedia.com/p...506&highlight=

Quote:

As part of the roll-out and in order to ensure fair usage of available capacity Virgin Media will be rolling out a new traffic management system at peak times, designed to adapt to network conditions to ensure time-sensitive and interactive uses â€“ such as surfing or streaming high-definition video â€“ remain unhindered by non-time-sensitive traffic such as peer-to-peer and newsgroup activity, reducing the possibility of annoying buffering that can occur when trying to watch TV online at peak times. Using smart network monitoring, the system will reserve at least 75 per cent of network resources for time-sensitive traffic, adjusting dynamically to overall network usage to ensure consistent performance for more customers.

I'm sure a more complete description will be mentioned, however due to its' dynamic nature it will be quite impossible for this to be given exact figures as it would entirely depend on how much bandwidth is being used by different classes of traffic at any one time.

As has been mentioned this applies to the entire network and every residential subscriber on it.

Peter_ · 30-09-2010, 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainmakerRaw

Erm, I posted just such a quote (see above) from VM's own website, stating that 50Mbps IS subject to shaping for NNTP and BT between 5pm and midnight.

As you said above it needs clarification as that still gives me nothing to tell a customer why they are slow and will lead to people disconnecting, what are agents supposed to do guess what has happened.

---------- Post added at 17:05 ---------- Previous post was at 17:02 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

It has been published.

http://pressoffice.virginmedia.com/p...506&highlight=

I'm sure a more complete description will be mentioned, however due to its' dynamic nature it will be quite impossible for this to be given exact figures as it would entirely depend on how much bandwidth is being used by different classes of traffic at any one time.

As has been mentioned this applies to the entire network and every residential subscriber on it.

If they do not clarify what they mean then many will disconnect as that is pretty meaningless and Customer Relations will be very busy as all we can do with the present information is just hum and har and say sorry no idea what is happening to your connection.

RainmakerRaw · 30-09-2010, 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masque

As you said above it needs clarification as that still gives me nothing to tell a customer why they are slow and will lead to people disconnecting, what are agents supposed to do guess what has happened.

That's a valid point, I was simply pointing out that VM have published information stating NNTP and BT will be throttled 5pm - midnight. I'm going to be keeping a close eye on this one, and as we've said they (VM) definitely need to carefully define this.

If it's a case of dynamically adapting shaping based on other use (eg allowing me up to 100% of my line's maximum even during shaping periods, provided nobody else is using the bandwidth) that's not so bad. To hard cap me regardless, even with spare capacity, would obviously be silly.

However, I'm still wondering why someone should be throttled/shaped for downloading via NNTP, when Granny Smith watching Eastenders on iPlayer will get full speed. For those horrible people who infringe copyright, they're only downloading the same thing Granny's watching on iPlayer - it's merely the delivery method that is being discriminated against.

You can say NNTP can go faster (a download is 50Mbps versus iPlayer streaming an XVID) but iPlayer downloads episodes into cache in seconds so clearly they're not that much different.

AdamD · 30-09-2010, 16:14

I had a feeling the 50mb product would get some form of shaping.

Doesn't bother me to much, I was expecting a much more severe restriction.

No doubt the 100mb product will be released as traffic shaping free, but then like the 50mb tier, will eventually fall to the same fate.

edgedemon · 30-09-2010, 16:14

Just my luck..
I upgraded to 50Mb last Saturday becuase of the unrestricted bit, now they are traffic shaping all customers...
Gonna ring them and downgrade back to 20Mb tonight when I get in..
It was the 'unrestricted' bit that sold me to the 50Mb, if they are restricting everyones usenet acess, then I might as well go back to 20Mb and save some cash..

RainmakerRaw · 30-09-2010, 16:19

AdamD, it says "all tiers" so I'd take that to include 100 megs too, once it comes out. Unless they re-write it all again at that time. Hopefully so, but if it was a case of keeping the flagship product shaping/throttling free then XXL wouldn't be getting shaped now as until 100Mbps comes out it IS (still) the flagship product.

edgedemon - if it's a choice between 20Mbps and 50Mbps I'd still say stick with XXL/50. XL has "REAL" STM and DOCSIS2 related congestion. At least 50Mbps "only" has NNTP/BT restrictions between 5 and 12. So much for selling me 50Mbps as "truly unrestricted, unlimited fibre optic internet" though. I thought DOCSIS3 was supposed to eliminate the need for all this silliness. That's certainly what I was told when I signed up.

As I said I'm considering leaving back to ADSL2+ with my nice unrestricted 20Mbps. But I wouldn't ditch XXL for 20Mbps...

BTW as I asked above: For those who know, even with DPI how will VM be able to distinguish between NNTP/BT and "legit" (I hate that as it's not true) SSL traffic on the same ports such as work/VPN, financial transactions, etc etc? Surely traffic over 443 which is SSL is the same whether it's NNTP or HTML or whatever else inside?

nomadking · 30-09-2010, 16:19

Streaming HD video using iPlayer etc will end up being affected by STM anyway.

RainmakerRaw · 30-09-2010, 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking

Streaming HD video using iPlayer etc will end up being affected by STM anyway.

Well not according to VM's new page:

Quote:

Originally Posted by VM

This policy does not impact any applications other than Peer to Peer and Newsgroups, so things like watching iPlayer, online gaming, making calls via Skype, downloading music tracks from iTunes or streaming them from Spotify and sending an email or normal browsing are unaffected.

Still a silly system though.

v0id · 30-09-2010, 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking

Streaming HD video using iPlayer etc will end up being affected by STM anyway.

iplayer streaming won't be affected as it no longer uses the peer to peer protocol. Spotify streaming however will