VM to monitor File Sharing

[Kymmy]

Guys last warning, please stick with the facts about the VM trail and not discuss other topics such as copyright breach, ACS..etc...

Also any comments regarding this or any other moderators post please make in private

[popper]

Originally Posted by Broadbandings

Or as I mentioned earlier used to promote their music service to record labels. Given the amount of assumptions that are currently driving potential legislation from the Dark Lord some genuine facts and figures to be pushed at him would be nice.

as you say BB its quite a possability, looking back at some of the posts in other threads yesturday , it reminded me of Neils quotes of basicly we are going to look into monitising the customer base and all their data or words to that effect.

i cant be bothered to find the quotes again as i closed the many pages now, but selling you a music track while your reading the your data will be monitored stories is just one of the options to do as he intends, make more new cash income anyway they can... doesnt seem to be much more to say here and stay on topic ... Mr Angry states and sums up the only last point very well........

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Ben Mcr

Oh I missed this off the second paragraph

Raw traffic data and identification information is deleted in the closed system and cannot be accessed by a human operator.

What safe guards are in place to ensure this happens or are we to just take there word for it

So how long before a potential revenue stream is identified by VM and we start to see a similar system to phorm. Remember one thing here nearly everyone who complained about phorm had as one of there reason TRUST, How can we trust that this data is Anonymised and just not hidden away for later sale.

[Traduk]

The general theme of this thread appears to be based on the legality of DPI and how if anonymity is assured it does not contravene national or European laws.

The initiative as described is almost certainly phase one of something that many thousands of VM users are not going to like when the full model is eventually rolled out. No company spends possibly millions unless there is a profit motive or a punitive intent or possibly both.

IMO to think that VM will trial a method to determine illegal activity with the long term intent on just fact finding is naive as they are always driven by the profit motive. The government wants file sharing cut, VM has apparently chosen to be at the vanguard and without doubt this initiative is to somehow satisfy both parties. There is no way that a fact finding mission is the end game when compliance with government desires and possibly some profit motive for VM are on the cards.

In time VM will either facilitate a policing oversight of its service or take on the roll itself. If hundreds of thousands of its customers are potentially affected then I suspect that the days of VM as a viable company are limited. If VM's spying on customers leads to many customers ending up in court they will see the biggest churn in their history and eventual bankruptcy.

VM have a long term history of spin and deceit. The trial appears to be a simple fact finding mission but everything VM does appears fairly unimportant at the outset but the end product is often implementation of something that many find unpleasant.

They must think we are all stupid. It is like having thousands of speed cameras just to monitor breaches of traffic law with no consequences to the law breakers. As with speed cameras the intent is likely to be behavioural modification with very lucrative payments (fines) paid to the enforcers.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by Traduk

The initiative as described is almost certainly phase one of something that many thousands of VM users are not going to like when the full model is eventually rolled out. No company spends possibly millions unless there is a profit motive or a punitive intent or possibly both.

IMO to think that VM will trial a method to determine illegal activity with the long term intent on just fact finding is naive as they are always driven by the profit motive.

I don't think anyone has said VM are doing it just for the sake of it. The data collected on how much illegal use is (or isn't) happening is probably to be used in conjunction with other stuff, like the Music Service.

If Virgin can prove that such products reduce the amount of illegal activity on the network then it hopefully should persuade the Government that 'extra steps' are not required, and it would be more beneficial persuading the music industry to engage fully with such services

[Traduk]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

I don't think anyone has said VM are doing it just for the sake of it. The data collected on how much illegal use is (or isn't) happening is probably to be used in conjunction with other stuff, like the Music Service.

If Virgin can prove that such products reduce the amount of illegal activity on the network then it hopefully should persuade the Government that 'extra steps' are not required, and it would be more beneficial persuading the music industry to engage fully with such services

I hope that you are right but suspect that the culture of something for nothing will take a lot of turning around. I think that VM as champion for the consumer is a little outside my belief structure but if they can provide a reasonably low cost alternative it might just work.

[Bonglet]

So virgin are going to break the current law again (just like other trials *cough splutter*)
strange that they want most of there customers to leave in the next year.

Mr. Nicholas Bohm (General Counsel to the Foundation for Information Policy Research) has said
“If the Detica system checks the files passing through the network against a database provided by rights holders (or does this via checksums or hashes), then it seems to run into exactly the same objections as the Phorm system, namely infringements of RIPA and PECR unless the necessary consents or authorisations are obtained. I do not see how even the Phorm RIPA argument (that interception was permitted for the purpose of a service provided to the user) could apply here, since no service is being provided and no consent obtained on any basis.”

So what we have is another ILLEGAL trial where 40% of virgin customers are going to get spied on and some people still want to defend it, we live in strange times indeed.
And given the above statement how are virgin going to inform the customers who are affected? or are virgin media above the law now just like bt were with phorm and not tell anyone, it does not matter if it is man or machine intercepting your communications you are still getting your communications intercepted.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

I don't think anyone has said VM are doing it just for the sake of it. The data collected on how much illegal use is (or isn't) happening is probably to be used in conjunction with other stuff, like the Music Service.

If Virgin can prove that such products reduce the amount of illegal activity on the network then it hopefully should persuade the Government that 'extra steps' are not required, and it would be more beneficial persuading the music industry to engage fully with such services

Oh look there goes a flying pig.

Lets face it this is all about the future and the future is bright the future is being able to sell customer surfing data to the highest bidder. VM have there own version of Phorm up and on Trial.

This must come under wire tapping laws

---------- Post added at 14:22 ---------- Previous post was at 14:20 ----------

Originally Posted by Bonglet

So virgin are going to break the current law again (just like other trials *cough splutter*)
strange that they want most of there customers to leave in the next year.

Mr. Nicholas Bohm (General Counsel to the Foundation for Information Policy Research) has said
“If the Detica system checks the files passing through the network against a database provided by rights holders (or does this via checksums or hashes), then it seems to run into exactly the same objections as the Phorm system, namely infringements of RIPA and PECR unless the necessary consents or authorisations are obtained. I do not see how even the Phorm RIPA argument (that interception was permitted for the purpose of a service provided to the user) could apply here, since no service is being provided and no consent obtained on any basis.”

So what we have is another ILLEGAL trial where 40% of virgin customers are going to get spied on and some people still want to defend it, we live in strange times indeed.
And given the above statement how are virgin going to inform the customers who are affected? or are virgin media above the law now just like bt were with phorm and not tell anyone, it does not matter if it is man or machine intercepting your communications you are still getting your communications intercepted.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by Sirius

Oh look there goes a flying pig.

Lets face it this is all about the future and the future is bright the future is being able to sell customer surfing data to the highest bidder. VM have there own version of Phorm up and on Trial.

And your proof of that is what exactly?

[Tarantella]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

And your proof of that is what exactly?

Because, given the nod and a wink from the powers that make and monitor the laws of this land, if you or I or anyone were in the same position as running a strapped for cash ISP, we would do the same.

[BenMcr]

It all depends what you mean

All companies want to make money out of their customers. I'm not sure how it's become a bad thing to want to do that?

As for this technology, you have the makers which say it's legal and others saying it *might* be illegal.

As with people, companies should also be able to have presumption of innocent until proven guilty

[Kymmy]

It becomes a bad thing when you use/change one service to provide another service for other third party people..

[Tarantella]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

It all depends what you mean

All companies want to make money out of their customers. I'm not sure how it's become a bad thing to want to do that?

As for this technology, you have the makers which say it's legal and others saying it *might* be illegal.

As with people, companies should also be able to have presumption of innocent until proven guilty

Im glad you rethought your post.

I included the "I" and "we" so you didn't think I was having a go at you personally.


The point is with all these innovations is not what the proport to do but where they will eventually lead.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

And your proof of that is what exactly?

The ability for VM to change the goal posts faster than a fast thing from planet fast that's why.

I bet by this time next year you will be seeing the true meaning of this service.

[Toto]

Originally Posted by Bonglet

So virgin are going to break the current law again (just like other trials *cough splutter*)
strange that they want most of there customers to leave in the next year.

Mr. Nicholas Bohm (General Counsel to the Foundation for Information Policy Research) has said
“If the Detica system checks the files passing through the network against a database provided by rights holders (or does this via checksums or hashes), then it seems to run into exactly the same objections as the Phorm system, namely infringements of RIPA and PECR unless the necessary consents or authorisations are obtained. I do not see how even the Phorm RIPA argument (that interception was permitted for the purpose of a service provided to the user) could apply here, since no service is being provided and no consent obtained on any basis.”

So what we have is another ILLEGAL trial where 40% of virgin customers are going to get spied on and some people still want to defend it, we live in strange times indeed.
And given the above statement how are virgin going to inform the customers who are affected? or are virgin media above the law now just like bt were with phorm and not tell anyone, it does not matter if it is man or machine intercepting your communications you are still getting your communications intercepted.

Strong words from Mr Bohm, but its bluster.

BT have never been prosecuted to the extent of being found guilty of breaching RIPA and PECR, and I very much doubt the VM will be challenged on this either.

That is just my opinion, I have no legal expertise to support that.