Manchester - the honeymoon period is over then - Page 12

Sephiroth · 18-01-2010, 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broadbandings

I think you misunderstand the nature of FTTC Seph, the MSANs go in the cabinet and terminate the copper lines then are backhauled with fibre to an exchange, not necessarily the closest one. At that point they either go to another exchange or connect to a switch there and then for handover via 802.1Q-in-Q to BT Wholesale and any other operators who have chosen to purchase connectivity to the switch.

DSL's advantage is where the contention point is - it's in the exchange, the backhauls from the MSANS (equivalent of CMTS / uBR in cable) rather than being at a street cabinet which needs additional fibre connectivity. Splitting cable nodes to increase bandwidth requires, eventually, new cabinet builds, new fibre pulls and new line cards, upgrading DSL backhaul if the operators has been sensible with their build requires just a new line card / NTE either side at most, and in some cases just one side if the other is a GigE / 10GbE port running below that.

......

No I don't misunderstand 21CN (nor thus FTTC). I was trying to keep it simple. The DSLAMs at the exchange are being replaced by MSANs. Homes connected directly to the exchange can be connected to the MSAN there. FTTC, as you say, requires new cabinets so that the "deep" access level tier MSANs can be accommodated. The reason I didn't put it this way is that people might getconfused as to the CMTS analogy you made.

bthodgson · 18-01-2010, 17:56

This is just getting odder now. The 'ready' light on th modem has been flashing on and off since last night but throughout this time I still seem to have full Internet access??

Not sure what's going on anymore...

Bluffdemon · 18-01-2010, 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by bthodgson

This is just getting odder now. The 'ready' light on th modem has been flashing on and off since last night but throughout this time I still seem to have full Internet access??

Not sure what's going on anymore...

its virgin's new disco light but still working internet ( but not for long ) ( and we love you ringing us for us to tell you its your router )

bthodgson · 18-01-2010, 21:55

Yeah, never heard VM tell me it's my router before.... Lol

Ignitionnet · 18-01-2010, 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

No I don't misunderstand 21CN (nor thus FTTC). I was trying to keep it simple. The DSLAMs at the exchange are being replaced by MSANs. Homes connected directly to the exchange can be connected to the MSAN there. FTTC, as you say, requires new cabinets so that the "deep" access level tier MSANs can be accommodated. The reason I didn't put it this way is that people might getconfused as to the CMTS analogy you made.

Seph I have to say I think you do misunderstand. 21CN is nothing to do with FTTC so misunderstanding of them is completely independent of one another. 21CN is the DSLAM -> MSAN migration removing ATM from the BT Wholesale DSL backhaul network and facilitating full POTS over MPLS functionality replacing the legacy switches with software switches and is not related to Next Generation Access at all. It's not even the same part of the BT group doing them. Next Generation Access / FTTC and FTTP are purely an Openreach project, 21CN is purely a BT Wholesale project.

People who connect directly to the exchanges in FTTC connected areas don't get anything new happen, beyond a feeling of persecution as they remain stuck on ADSL and ADSL2+ so limited to 24Mbps.

If you wanted to keep it simple wouldn't it have been better to simply say that it brings the 'exchange' to your local cabinet for broadband purposes, and as the problem with DSL is usually distance from the exchange cutting it from as much as 6 or more KM to a few hundred metres gives much better performance?

I didn't actually make the CMTS analogy until after you made your post, indeed the analogy was part of the response to it so I'm not sure why your post would be phrased to avoid confusion with one I hadn't made yet unless you were using the Meerkat crystal ball!

---------- Post added at 23:07 ---------- Previous post was at 23:03 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluffdemon

its virgin's new disco light but still working internet ( but not for long ) ( and we love you ringing us for us to tell you its your router )

Doesn't mean it's going to die, they do that for some reason even on working non-50Mbit modems. If a 50Mbit modem does it on the other hand you're either unique or imagining being connected to the net as you are in fact disconnected

Sephiroth · 19-01-2010, 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broadbandings

Seph I have to say I think you do misunderstand. 21CN is nothing to do with FTTC so misunderstanding of them is completely independent of one another. 21CN is the DSLAM -> MSAN migration removing ATM from the BT Wholesale DSL backhaul network and facilitating full POTS over MPLS functionality replacing the legacy switches with software switches and is not related to Next Generation Access at all. It's not even the same part of the BT group doing them. Next Generation Access / FTTC and FTTP are purely an Openreach project, 21CN is purely a BT Wholesale project.

.....

Far from it my friend - yopu rather choose to misunderstand what I understand. The two go hand in hand. The MSAN at the cabinet needs the MSAN at the exchange and so on all the way up the tiers. 21CN is the enabler for FTTC. It doesn't matter which part of BT is doing what since it all bolts together for use by the various delivery or sales divisions of BT.

Anyway, can we stop arguing please?

Retrovertigo · 19-01-2010, 03:33

Well as boring as I'm sure it is to read about yet again, I had no connection at all again during peak hours this evening. God knows I am bored of keep writing about it - but it is kind of a therapy now. If I share it, it doesn't feel so bad

It is worrying that since students started trickling back into the area, that the problem has got worse. Five nights in a row now with no net - and counting. Money keeps getting knocked off my bill (last months was around £13) - but as I have said, it isn't good enough.

I'm kind of defeated by the net at the moment. I know it isn't quite the same, but when shopping around for different gas/electricity suppliers - you never get what they promised and you realise you are no better off :/

Luckily I am home all day at the moment so I do most of my internet "stuff" during the daytime and enjoy rather excellent speeds [part of which makes me want to hang in there (so stop moaning I hear you scream..haha) ]

One thing that does niggle me. I was having so many problems that I switched to 50 meg, as I was told by VM that not many people in my area were on it and so things would vastly improve. When the area manager turns up, I mention this to him - and how with hardly anyone on 50meg I should get full speed all day long.

He replied with "oh no, most of the students around here are all on 50meg as they want the fastest speed possible." Sigh.

I think I have moaned enough for today

I was thinking back though to when I signed up with NTL. I recall having had a couple of technical problems maybe 12 months after having it installed. Each time I needed an engineer visit. And on both occasions he arrived within 2 hours (!!!) of me calling and fixed the problem there and then.

Now when I speak to them, I have never had an engineer booked less than 5 days later, apart from the day before Christmas eve when I told them no way I was going over the christmas period with no internet. Times change eh?

Ignitionnet · 19-01-2010, 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Far from it my friend - yopu rather choose to misunderstand what I understand. The two go hand in hand. The MSAN at the cabinet needs the MSAN at the exchange and so on all the way up the tiers. 21CN is the enabler for FTTC. It doesn't matter which part of BT is doing what since it all bolts together for use by the various delivery or sales divisions of BT.

Anyway, can we stop arguing please?

Nah

The MSAN at cabinet has nothing to do with the one in the exchange and they are not in any way interdependent. It connects, via fibre, to a switch for distribution to ISPs such as Be, Sky, and indeed BT Wholesale where it happens to be backhauled over the 21CN products WBC / WMBC. Not required for this to happen at all.

The copper from a home that takes FTTC goes via a BT Openreach supplied VDSL2 modem. It is split at the PCP / cabinet, where the voice goes straight to the exchange where it could connect to a 21CN MSAN, an LLU Operator MSAN, or a legacy SystemX POTS voice switch, it doesn't matter. The split off segment goes down tie cables to an MSAN either co-located in the cabinet or in a newly built one next door where the customer modem is authenticated and acquires its' VLAN IDs, one for provider and another customer specific on that MSAN.

After it's been VDSL'd up it is then backhauled over the cabinet's n x 10Gig backhauls to a switch where using the outer VLAN tag it is switched to the appropriate subscriber via an optical handoff. In the case of ISPs that use BT Wholesale products, yes, it goes via 21CN at this point as mentioned above but there is no dependency at all in place. This could be pushed down their 20CN IP over ATM / AAL5 network then to the 20CN Colossus IP backbone. In the case of LLU operators who also offer line rental and use MPF unbundling (the entire line) which include TalkTalk and newer Sky products it doesn't go near 21CN just as their non-FTTC products don't. No enabling at all.

You'll fine more information from Openreach regarding FTTC here and FTTH/P here.

indivisibleman · 20-01-2010, 10:23

I've just got a bit of a refund on my bills from VM after calling them yesterday. I checked when my first call was (27th Nov) and the billing side did a refund from then until yesterday. But the group that deals with faults told me specifically the problem I had when I first called has been fixed (something to do with signal and noise), the later set of calls in mid December were to a different problem which has been fixed, and that my call yesterday was for a new problem which had only been "opened" the day before and will be fixed by the 31st of January. The whole time all these problems have been found by VM and fixed I have had the same intermittent connection (no gaps in that) and for the last few weeks the ready light flashes/does not flash at random times irrespective of the internet working. Are VM lying through their teeth to me when I talk to them? Do they understand that if I still have the same problems with my internet connection then what they have done is NOT fixing it?

Retrovertigo · 20-01-2010, 13:02

It seems it depends on who you talk to. As far as the newsgroups go, they reckon it is the same ongoing problem from November.

I do wonder sometimes if they claim the have fixed something in order to just open a new ticket, so that the same fault number isn't open for months at a time.

Bluffdemon · 21-01-2010, 09:23

They are lying bunch of nobodys as far as i am aware , all these " its a new problem " is utter garbage , i am really wanting to leave VM again and go with BT , infact when i do leave i will be ripping the brown box off the outside wall as i will never go with VM or any other company after them , since they took over from NTL is gone downhill fast , infact anything mr branson touches turns to Sh*t , sorry if any of you are offended by this but i bet most of manchester at the moment would agree

Retrovertigo · 04-02-2010, 15:56

Anyone having disconnection issues again? It seemed as though they had fixed it, but the last couple of days I have had quite a few outages and have had to reboot my modem each time to fix it.

Just curious if anyone else is suffering again. Not much point calling VM - but I have asked on the newsgroups.

Sephiroth · 04-02-2010, 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retrovertigo

Anyone having disconnection issues again? It seemed as though they had fixed it, but the last couple of days I have had quite a few outages and have had to reboot my modem each time to fix it.

Just curious if anyone else is suffering again. Not much point calling VM - but I have asked on the newsgroups.

Might be useful to hit the CONNECTION link each time you reset the modem and see which CMTS serves you.

bigitup_j · 04-02-2010, 19:17

we've had a few disconnections, especially in the evening. but nothing as major as before. so i'm hoping it's just a wee hiccup!

Dexstroyer · 09-02-2010, 18:23

I've had issues since Saturday 6th. Service just keeps dropping for no reason